# How do you 'see' R.E.M now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 28, 2009, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601 "2009-04-28T09:38:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/21 "2009-04-28T23:25:58Z")
Bring the jangle! The early stuff with the murky, muddled, stream-of-consciousness lyrics, and the magical jangle, that’s the ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Quintas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@Quintas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quintas)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/22 "2009-04-29T06:27:13Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > REM used to be one of my favorites but I’ve only seen them in concert once, in a 6,000-seat arena at a local college. It was about the time that some popular magazine (Rolling Stone?) put them on the cover with the caption “The World’s Most Important Band” (or something like that). > > I got the impression they really didn’t want to be there. They had booked the tour when they were still somewhat obscure indie rockers but were performing as full-fledged pop phenomena who thought they could and should be somewhere better. Musically they were everything I expected, but Michael Stipe’s attitude between songs dripped with condescension and contempt for his audience. Obviously my impressions are subjective. Maybe he was always like that, or maybe he ate something for lunch that disagreed with him, but that concert has diminished my appreciation of their subsequent work. > > (Not right away though. I was never a frequent concertgoer in my youth, and it wasn’t until I had seen the rapport that other performers had with their audiences that I looked back and realized just how unpleasant he had been.) Sounds like you saw them on the ‘Green’ tour. 1989? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/23 "2009-04-29T13:18:08Z")
Stipe has always been painfully shy, and he has said in interviews that people sometimes mistake his shyness for aloofness. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/24 "2009-04-29T16:18:16Z")
> [@Quintas](#): > > Sounds like you saw them on the ‘Green’ tour. 1989? I couldn’t remember the year, but “The One I Love” had just hit, so research shows it must have been 1987. > [@spoke-](#): > > Stipe has always been painfully shy, and he has said in interviews that people sometimes mistake his shyness for aloofness. I’ve seen shy performers who stare at their shoes and don’t talk between songs. Although not my favorite kind of show, it beats being openly antagonistic. But as I said, it’s all subjective and was a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/25 "2009-04-29T16:43:45Z")
Murmer, Chronic Town (yes, it counts), Reckoning, Fables of the Reconstruction, Life’s Rich Pageant, Dead Letter Office (even this counts), Document, Eponymous and Green = Excellent. Out of Time and Automatic for the People = Mediocre Monster, New Adventures in Hi-Fi, Up, Reveal and Around the Sun = Utter crap To me, it’s a chronilogical degression. Good Bad Ugly. What happened? Je ne sais pas. Bill Berry left, for one. He was critical to their distinct sound and style. They also changed their format and dynamic—dramatically. There was a time when I thought that R.E.M. could never make a bad song. Now I wonder if they’ll ever again make a good one. I think it’s over anyway. You lose Berry, you lose the R.E.M. signature. It’s not wholly them anymore. ---
**Author:** ![FallenAngel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FallenAngel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FallenAngel)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/26 "2009-04-29T17:44:38Z")
> [@Quintas](#): > > fair enough. But i’ve always hated the term ‘over-rated’ when applied to _any_ band. You either like the band, or some of their stuff or don’t. What does the fact that critics rate them higher than you do have to do with whether or not you like some songs? I wasn’t commenting on their critical reception but from the rabid fans who thought they were so incredibly deep and important to the world at large. I have the same problem with Rush, U2 and Pink Floyd, incredibly pretentious bands that feed on the adulation of 20 somethings and think their importance extends beyond their ability to write and play tunes for mass consumption. I have nothing against playing tunes for mass consumption, but musicians aren’t going to change the world or improve anyone’s life beyond bringing entertainment, and bands and fans who think of it as more than annoy me to no end. REM is a prime example of that phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/27 "2009-04-29T18:10:38Z")
_Chronic Town_ through _Document_, please. Definitely include _Dead Letter Office_ (1987), because it’s fantastic. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/28 "2009-04-29T18:17:49Z")
> [@FallenAngel](#): > > I wasn’t commenting on their critical reception but from the rabid fans who thought they were so incredibly deep and important to the world at large. I have the same problem with Rush, U2 and Pink Floyd, incredibly pretentious bands that feed on the adulation of 20 somethings and think their importance extends beyond their ability to write and play tunes for mass consumption. > > I have nothing against playing tunes for mass consumption, but musicians aren’t going to change the world or improve anyone’s life beyond bringing entertainment, and bands and fans who think of it as more than annoy me to no end. REM is a prime example of that phenomenon. What a sad, myopic view. You don’t think the money Bono (just to cherry pick an example) has poured into the Chernobyl Children’s Project, the Food Bank of New York, or Ethiopian public health and hygiene programs has “improve[d] anyone’s life beyond bringing entertainment”? That’s a ludicrous proposition on the face of it. Bono might personally be a douche. I don’t know. But if so, he’s a douche who’s used his money and influence to actually try to improve people’s lives. ---
**Author:** ![corkboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/29 "2009-04-29T18:27:29Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Stipe has always been painfully shy, and he has said in interviews that people sometimes mistake his shyness for aloofness. Maybe so, but his shyness doesn’t keep him from being eye-rollingly pretentious. Once \*Shiny Happy People \*and \*Losing My Religion \*came out, they were pretty much dead to me. I got a bunch of music from my brother a couple years ago, including the recent REM albums. I don’t listen to them except as they come up randomly on my iPod, so I know I’ve heard some of the newer stuff but don’t know exactly what. Either way, I wasn’t terribly impressed. I think the only “recent” song of theirs I liked was _Imitation of Life_. ---
**Author:** ![MonaLizaT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@MonaLizaT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonaLizaT)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/30 "2009-04-30T00:19:47Z")
My favorite band, up through _Document_ and some of _Green_. I have very fond memories of three friends and I crowding into Rich’s car (outside the Physics Building in college; we were physics/engineering majors) to listen to his cassette tape of _Lifes Rich Pageant_, just released. The band played a concert in the gym at my small liberal arts college on the _Fables of the Reconstruction_ tour. Awesome. Loved _King of the Road_ from _Dead Letter Office_. I bought some of their later albums but never listen to them. Their music always take me back to college. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/31 "2009-04-30T01:19:20Z")
I was a rabid fan from the first time I heard _Murmur_. I saw them 7 times over the years. Everything up to and including _Green_ is excellent. By the time _Monste_r and _New Adventures in Hi-Fi_ came out I was losing interest quickly. _Up_, _Reveal_ and _Around the Sun_ are so painfully awful I can’t imagine ever listening to them again. However, I will say _Acclerate_ is the best thing they have done in ages. There are several very good songs on it but I don’t know what it means for the future. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/32 "2009-04-30T01:51:23Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > What happened? Je ne sais pas. Bill Berry left, for one. He was critical to their distinct sound and style. They also changed their format and dynamic—dramatically. > > There was a time when I thought that R.E.M. could never make a bad song. Now I wonder if they’ll ever again make a good one. I think it’s over anyway. You lose Berry, you lose the R.E.M. signature. It’s not wholly them anymore. Most bands as they mature are pretty much thrown on the horns of an often unsolvable dilemma-continue to make the same old stuff in the same old style (the Rush Way), or drastically change your sound around every 1-3 albums (the Path of the Crimson King). Do the former, and yeah the fanboys will keep eating it up, but you’ll be creatively bankrupt, sooner or later. Go the latter route, and yeah you might reinvigorate your sound, but more often what I see (err hear) is a band all-too-self-consciously doing everything in their power to not sound like they did 10-20 years ago. They’ll lose those (hopefully unique) qualities which made them appealing in the first place. Maybe they’ll grab the collective ears of a new audience; more often they’ll just break up. REM pretty much put the jangle pop in their rear-view mirror by _Green_, but attempted to remain (more or less) wedded to a folksy-ish singer-songwriter kind of sound, with some rocking out here and there (“Orange Crush”, most of _Monster_). For awhile (IMHO) it worked, but eventually they ran out of any significant creative impetus. But they have lots of company throughout the history of rock. ---
**Author:** ![Satellite\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Satellite\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satellite_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/33 "2009-04-30T03:19:54Z")
The only songs of theirs that really registered on my radar at all; Stand – the earliest song I remember from them… kinda fun, catchy; everybody at the dance would follow along with the silly dance from the video. The One I Love – probably my favorite song of theirs, I used to accompany a buddy of mine on bass for this one, at a jam night back home. It’s The End of the World – Fun song, I prefer the [Great](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OENjixZd_Oo) [Big Sea](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYL7N9i3vTk) version. Losing My Religion – In my opinion, this is when they hit it big, and after this, everything else was on the downhill slope. S^G ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/34 "2009-04-30T06:03:40Z")
I loved R.E.M. from about 1987 on. “The One I Love” blew up and you could hear them on Top 40 radio. I bought an IRS greatest hits album called _These People Are Nuts_ which had “Superman” from _Lifes Rich Pageant_ on it. So I dug into their back catalog in earnest. I think _Eponymous_ came out in '88 and again, more awesome stuff in the catalog came to light. So as I headed to college (with a new copy of _Green_ in the stereo) I spent my freshman year in Sound Exchange on the Drag getting all of the old stuff - _Document, Murmur, Dead Letter Office/Chronic Town, Reckoning, Fables of the Reconstruction…, Lifes Rich Pageant._ There just aren’t many bands with such a strong back catalog. All of these albums are classics. Then of course “Stand” became a radio hit. And then they released _Out of Time_ in '91. They were no longer obscure, they were the biggest band in America. They signed that huge contract with Warner Brothers - I think it was the biggest recording deal in history at the time. The inexorable “Shiny Happy People” became a cult hit, at least. _Automatic for the People_ was possibly the last completely great R.E.M. album - I certainly like _Monster_ and _New Adventures in Hi-Fi_ and they’re very good albums, but not completely. I used to cringe when I saw how many used _Monster_ tapes were in Sound Exchange. Bill Berry left and it all went south. _Up_ is mostly horrible, saved by “At My Most Beautiful.” I have _Reveal_ but oddly, the best track on the album is a direct homage to “Driver 8” - “Imitation of Life.” I agree that the last album was a return to form but I just wish they could get Bill back and do the studio band thing. I would rank the albums in this order: 1. Reckoning 2. Murmur 3. Green 4. Out of Time 5. Document 6. Chronic Town 7. Automatic for the People 8. Fables of the Reconstruction 9. Lifes Rich Pageant 10. Dead Letter Office 11. Monster 12. Everything else Keep in mind that 1-9 are amazing albums. Most bands are lucky to make one album in their career of that quality - R.E.M. have nine. So they have permission to suck and still make money as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/35 "2009-04-30T11:34:11Z")
Very solid case **HH** - R.E.M. are indeed worthy of respect. Their drift into suckiness - or at least lesser quality - is bound to breed a bit of distaste. You want a reason to explain the drift and many involve selling out or otherwise losing their bearings. But sometimes things just change - Berry was one of those rare signature drummers, who sounded nothing like Keith Moon but was as essential to the band as Moonie to the Who - and their Golden Age is done. But it was a lot more fun when Stipe was unintelligible. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/36 "2009-04-30T12:04:50Z")
My favourite of their albums is probably Murmur, second would be New Adventures in Hi Fi. Each album has some gems and some duds. The latest one I think could have had a more varied sonic palette but isn’t bad. I’ve seen them in concert 5 times since 1998. The “Not a show” gig/rehearsal in The Olympia, Dublin was the worst and latest time I’ve seen them. ---
**Author:** ![MonaLizaT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@MonaLizaT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonaLizaT)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/37 "2009-04-30T16:18:29Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > But it was a lot more fun when Stipe was unintelligible. That’s my theory - once we could understand the words, the musical quality went downhill. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601/38 "2009-04-30T16:41:57Z")
To me, R.E.M. is mostly _Document_ through _Automatic for the People_ plus their pre-_Document_ singles. The more recent stuff is uninteresting to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-see-r-e-m-now/494601.md?page=1)