How do you spell "hoydee toydee"?

[pulykamell]

@AskNott

Here’s one of the few things I remember from the PBS mini-series about the evolution of American English:

In the old days, just like today, only the rich could afford oceanfront property. So, if your house was close to high tide (in some accents, hoigh toide,) you were wealthy. We like to rhyme slang, so it became hoity toity.

That’s one of those explanations that sets of my false etymology alarm. It very well may be based in fact, for all I know, but etymonline says this:

1668, “riotous behavior,” from earlier highty tighty “frolicsome, flighty,” perhaps an alteration and reduplication of dial. hoyting “acting the hoyden, romping” (1594), see hoyden. Sense of “haughty” first recorded late 1800s, probably on similarity of sound.

[BarnOwl]

@pulykamell

That’s one of those explanations that sets off my false etymology alarm. It very well may be based in fact, for all I know, but etymonline says this:

Don’t care. I like AskNott’s version better.

[pulykamell]

@BarnOwl

Don’t care. I like AskNott’s version better.

Well, duh. That’s the appeal of false etymologies.

[BarnOwl]

@pulykamell

Well, duh. That’s the appeal of false etymologies.

So why’re you getting so hoity toity over it?

[AskNott]

@pulykamell

Well, duh. That’s the appeal of false etymologies.

Considering that etymonline’s lineage has to stretch to explain how hoity-toity means wealthy or high-class, I’ll “Well, duh…false” right back at you. :dubious:

[pulykamell]

@AskNott

Considering that etymonline’s lineage has to stretch to explain how hoity-toity means wealthy or high-class, I’ll “Well, duh…false” right back at you. :dubious:

Ahem, I did say “it may be very well based in fact” didn’t I? I’m not completely dismissing the “high tide” etymology. However, I would like to see a reputable cite on it. Random House also says the word is a rhyming compound based “hoit,” meaning “to romp, riot.”

[pulykamell]

Furthermore, Snopes on “hoity toity.”

The expression comes from our penchant for creating rhyming phrases such as “loosey-goosey” or “helter-skelter,” and in this case its base is “hoit,” a 16th century verb whose meaning is “to play the fool” or “to indulge in riotous and noisy mirth.”

[pulykamell]

I should add, though, that I am curious how “hoity toity,” meaning “mirthful” and “giddy” came to mean “wealthy, upperclass.” I can’t find a single source, though, claiming a “high tide” etymology. I have found references to “highty-tighty,” but they’re saying that’s a variant of “hoity toity.”

This reference suggests the etymology is reduplication of the word “haughty,” which Snopes discounts.

This cite posits one theory:

The change from one meaning to the other seems to be due to the pronunciation of hoity as heighty and the subsequent allusion to highness or haughtiness. Two 18th century dictionaries give intermediate forms:

B.E's A new dictionary of the terms ancient and modern of the canting crew, circa 1700 - "Hightetity, a Ramp or Rude Girl."

Francis Grose's A classical of the vulgar tongue, 1785 "Heighty toity, a hoydon, or romping girl."

[Oy]

Dictionary.com says that:

@Dictionary.com

[Origin: 1660–70; rhyming compound based on hoit to romp, riot (now obs.)]

I got the impression it’s from the same root as Haughty.

People who pronounce ‘tide’ as ‘toid’ are generally not wealthy enough to run around sea-side resorts, and beside, the majority of sources place the beginning of rhyming slang in the early 19th century, while hoity-toity (a rhying term, but NOT rhyming slang) seems to have appeared in print as early as mid seventeenth century.

[pulykamell]

People who pronounce ‘tide’ as ‘toid’ are generally not wealthy enough to run around sea-side resorts

But those are not the people who would be using the word “hoity toity” anyway, given its negative connotation. It’d be the working class people with the strong accents. Now, I agree that it seems rather unlikely that “high tide” is the source of the word “hoity-toity,” (curiosity got the best of me and I spent more time digging last night, discovering nothing that hasn’t already been posted) but I don’t think the reason given above works to discount that etymology.

[Oy]

@pulykamell

But those are not the people who would be using the word “hoity toity” anyway, given its negative connotation. It’d be the working class people with the strong accents. Now, I agree that it seems rather unlikely that “high tide” is the source of the word “hoity-toity,” (curiosity got the best of me and I spent more time digging last night, discovering nothing that hasn’t already been posted) but I don’t think the reason given above works to discount that etymology.

Good point.