# How do you talk to your kids about race? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 19, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011 "2010-05-19T15:47:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chicagojeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@Chicagojeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicagojeff)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/41 "2010-05-20T10:21:12Z")
Well they are 13 and 11 and have pretty much attended mostly white schools in a fairly affluent area so we’ve discussed race for as long as we have had simple discussions. They’ve heard myself and my ex make certain comments and I’ve explained certain historical instances and context. I always felt for black kids who parents decided to skip racial discussions and leave their child completely unprepared for society. I met a lot of those kids when they reacted to this and then in my opinion over-compensated. When my 13yr old decided with his mother to grow dreadlocks I explained to him that he was going to face a certain amount of repercussions from society. I told him he had the right do what he wished with his hair but he couldn’t fall into some sort of funk when he heard nasty comments about it. Ironically enough he’s (as i suspected) gotten equal amounts of shit from other black kids as well. I’ve flat out told both of them as we’ve had discussions in the car that they need to perform to a higher level because of certain expectations that would be thrust upon them wanted or not. It’s is sometimes a difficult situation… as mentioned earlier in whynot’s post… but its a trade off my ex and I made when we chose to send them to the schools we sent them to. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/42 "2010-05-20T14:18:23Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Well, I kind of do mean literally…like when we had that poll in IMHO about whether or not you date outside the race. I’ve only dated white people and I’m nonwhite, but I put that I’d never dated someone who wasn’t my race. Then about three minutes later I posted in the thread to clarify because it was only then that I realized I’d gotten it wrong as it were. So, in that way I kind of do. Huh. Two relationships ago, I was in an interracial relationship, and wouldn’t have remembered unless asked. We were pretty much the same person, had very similar upbringings, similar personality types. We were a good match (until we weren’t) and race never seemed like much of an issue. It wasn’t anything that I thought about, but if someone ever brought it up, I’d go, “Oh yeah, he’s not black, but I am.” Some relationships before that, I was dating interracially as well, but in that instance, the difference didn’t seem inconsequential. He was Jewish. Like, Jewish Jewish, not secular Jewish. I always noticed the difference because it was so apparent. So yeah, sometimes I’d forget that I was in an Interracial Relationship (OooOOOoh), Adan not really pay attention to other people’s races, but I can’t imagine ever forgetting that I was not white, or being asked if the person I dated was the same race as I, but forgetting that we weren’t. > [@](#): > > The other thing that kind of annoys me is the whole “We’re so liberal and accepting of your non-whiteness” which I kind of felt at college a couple of times. Stuff like, “Dinners for students of color” or the time a woman when I was at the caf asked me if I wanted to join a group for students of color to talk about issues that people of color (apparently) face…I just never got that. I also really hate the phrase person of color. Oh gods, don’t get me started. In short, I agree. > [@amarinth](#): > > Actually, [in 2006](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Girl_Like_Me_(documentary)), someone redid the [doll study](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_and_Mamie_Clark) that was originally done in 1930s & 1940s. Black kids don’t think favorably of dolls of their own race; they view white dolls more favorably and assign words like “good” and “pretty” to the dolls that aren’t like them. We really can’t compare the doll test of the 1940s to asking young black women their ideas about race and beauty. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/43 "2010-05-20T14:27:44Z")
> [@Chicagojeff](#): > > When my 13yr old decided with his mother to grow dreadlocks I explained to him that he was going to face a certain amount of repercussions from society. My son’s also struggled with the dreadlock decision, and he’s decided not to, for now. His hair is actually perfect for it, and he would actually look great in them in a cute blond hippie/beach bum kind of way, but he fears the reaction of the black kids at school and on the street. Again, I agree that these discussions are very dependent on where you live and what the demographics are in your daily life. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/44 "2010-05-20T15:10:59Z")
I explained to our children that human beings are like a beautiful box of crayons that come in all different colors. Some are not as sharp as others. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/45 "2010-05-20T15:41:18Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > We really can’t compare the doll test of the 1940s to asking young black women their ideas about race and beauty. The little girls of 2006 are going to become young women soon. Seeing things didn’t change during the previous 65 years, I doubt they’ve changed drastically in the past 4. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/46 "2010-05-20T16:10:15Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > The little girls of 2006 are going to become young women soon. Seeing things didn’t change during the previous 65 years, I doubt they’ve changed drastically in the past 4. Not the point. Here’s the point: [ul][li]I don’t see young children’s responses to race as comparable to young adults’ responses.[/li][li]I do not see as comparable people’s ideas about race 65 years ago and those in 2006 (or 2010).[/li][li]I especially do not see young black children’s responses to the skin tone of dolls in 1947 to be comparable a discussion of race in between by young black women in 2006.[/ul][/li] Here are some results from CNN’s study: > [@](#): > > Correlations: Early childhood > • Children who associated positive traits (i.e., smart, nice, good, good looking) for pictures of lighter skin tone children also generally selected darker skin tones for children with negative traits (dumb, mean, bad ugly) and vice versa; children who selected darker skin tones for children with positive traits selected lighter skin tones for children with negative traits (r = -.76, p \< .0001). > • Children who preferred lighter skin tones rejected darker skin tones and children who preferred darker skin tones rejected lighter skin tones. > > … > > • Self-selected skin tone and preferred skin tone correlations (refer to Table 2). > o Children’s self-selected skin tone and their preferred skin tone tended to be similar > (e.g., both selections were either dark or they were both light). > o Children’s self-selected skin tone was negatively correlated with their scores on > negative attitudes and beliefs (r=-.48, p\<.0001) and color rejection (r=-.36, p\<.01) > (i.e., lighter skin tones on one variable were related to darker tones on the other). Dark children preferred the darker skinned pictures, and tended to associate them with good qualities, while the light children did the same for the lighter skinned pictures. Full pdf [here](http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/05/13/expanded_results_methods_cnn.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/47 "2010-05-20T16:37:47Z")
[quote=“MeanOldLady, post:46, topic:540011”] [ul] [li]I especially do not see young black children’s responses to the skin tone of dolls in 1947 to be comparable a discussion of race in between by young black women in 2006.[/ul][/li][/QUOTE] This sentence doesn’t make any sense. Pretend it says “I especially do not see young black children’s responses to the skin tone of dolls in 1947 comparable to a discussion of race by young black women in 2006.” Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/48 "2010-05-20T16:38:18Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Not the point. Here’s the point: > > [ul][li]I don’t see young children’s responses to race as comparable to young adults’ responses.[/li][li]I do not see as comparable people’s ideas about race 65 years ago and those in 2006 (or 2010).[/li][li]I especially do not see young black children’s responses to the skin tone of dolls in 1947 to be comparable a discussion of race in between by young black women in 2006.[/ul][/li] > Here are some results from CNN’s study: > Dark children preferred the darker skinned pictures, and tended to associate them with good qualities, while the light children did the same for the lighter skinned pictures. Full pdf [here](http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/05/13/expanded_results_methods_cnn.pdf). From what I understand, the study was actually replicated, using the same dolls, with kids the same age, and the results were similar. The study was documented on film by a high-school student and supplemented with interviews and commentary about teenage girls and their feelings about beauty standards. On other words, it was the same study, she just interpreted it through a different lens. [Here’s a link](http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=6181729) to the NPR transcript covering the 2006 study. > [@](#): > > Ms. Kiri Davis (Filmmaker, A Girl Like Me): Can you show me the doll that is the nice doll? > > And why is that the nice doll? > > Unidentified Girl: He is white. > > Ms. DAVIS: And can you show me the doll that looks bad? Okay. And can you give - and why does that look bad? > > Unidentified Girl: Because he’s black. > > MARTIN: Davis says that 15 of the 21 children preferred the white doll. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/49 "2010-05-20T16:42:26Z")
CNN’s results would suggest the opposite, as the black students associated positive traits with the dark skinned pictures. The only logical conclusion to draw nobody likes black dolls. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/50 "2010-05-20T17:21:06Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > CNN’s results would suggest the opposite, as the black students associated positive traits with the dark skinned pictures. You have go to the section on Chi Square analysis to get the conclusion everyone is talking about. It’s not surprising that being dark-skinned is correlated with having more positive views toward dark skin, and vice versa. The question of importance, though, is whether there is bias against one type of skin color among whites and blacks. The answer is yes. In a world in which there is no anti-black bias (just bias towards people who look like self) blacks would be just as likely to view dark-skinned people favorably as whites are to view white people favorably. The results of the study show they aren’t. Blacks are more likely than whites to view dark skin favorably, but both groups taken together are more likely to view light skin favorably. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/51 "2010-05-20T17:34:02Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > I explained to our children that human beings are like a beautiful box of crayons that come in all different colors. Some are not as sharp as others. This is beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/52 "2010-05-20T17:38:20Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Huh. Two relationships ago, I was in an interracial relationship, and wouldn’t have remembered unless asked. We were pretty much the same person, had very similar upbringings, similar personality types. We were a good match (until we weren’t) and race never seemed like much of an issue. It wasn’t anything that I thought about, but if someone ever brought it up, I’d go, “Oh yeah, he’s not black, but I am.” Some relationships before that, I was dating interracially as well, but in that instance, the difference didn’t seem inconsequential. He was Jewish. Like, Jewish Jewish, not secular Jewish. I always noticed the difference because it was so apparent. Yeah…it’s strange. I don’t think I really knew what I was when I was little. Everyone in my hometown save maybe one black girl was white, and I’m South Asian so it never occurred to me to think of myself as anything for a while. I don’t know…I guess I don’t really have a racial identity. There’s a huge question mark there. > [@](#): > > Oh gods, don’t get me started. In short, I agree. Yeah. I’m not sure if other people feel that way. I got a mail from my college for this Woman of Color banquet or something reunion and it just felt so skeevy to me. Like…I know it’s not a segregation type thing–it’s an empowering, let’s network type thing…but it’s just so odd to me. And I suppose there must be nonwhite people who don’t mind these kinds of events. Maybe with me it’s just that I don’t ID as nonwhite…I don’t know. These events/groups–they’re things I myself just don’t find comfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/53 "2010-05-20T17:38:39Z")
We live in Vancouver, which is a pretty multi-racial city. My two haole kids are part of the honky minority at their school. We talk about race a lot, and religion even more. Yesterday’s discussion: why do Jesus and the BVM keep showing up on sandwiches and under freeway overpasses, but Mohammad’s picture never seems to spontaneously appear anywhere? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/54 "2010-05-20T17:44:46Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > We live in Vancouver, which is a pretty multi-racial city. My two haole kids are part of the honky minority at their school. We talk about race a lot, and religion even more. Yesterday’s discussion: why do Jesus and the BVM keep showing up on sandwiches and under freeway overpasses, but Mohammad’s picture never seems to spontaneously appear anywhere? Mohammed has that je ne sais quoi that keeps people from mocking him, and that Tom Cruise really wishes he had. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/55 "2010-05-20T17:45:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Blacks are more likely than whites to view dark skin favorably, but both groups taken together are more likely to view light skin favorably. Actually, on reflection I’m not sure the data shows this. From my scanning over the percentages in the Chi square result section, it appears as if the responses of the black kids tend to show less evidence of color bias (either negative or positive), than do whites. Their responses seem to be distributed more evenly across dark, middle, and light skin tones, while white kids seem to exclude the middle colors more when they make their choices of “smart” and “dumb”. This suggests that black kids actually appear to be more “color blind” than the white kids. However, some of this could be due to fact that black people range in skin color from very light to very dark, while whites tend to just be light. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/56 "2010-05-20T17:59:27Z")
A question I have is…do the kids know that they have the option of not answering one of the choices? If someone asked me, as a grown up now, “Which color/doll is better” I’d just reject the premise. Which is what most of us would do. But does a child even know enough to say, “It’s a false/trick question”? Or are they just answering because there has to be a right answer? Obviously, saying, “X is bad because it’s black” is showing their reasoning, but I’m just wondering if they even can realize that there’s the option of rejecting the idea of color being linked to good/badness. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/57 "2010-05-20T18:00:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You have go to the section on Chi Square analysis to get the conclusion everyone is talking about. > > It’s not surprising that being dark-skinned is correlated with having more positive views toward dark skin, and vice versa. The question of importance, though, is whether there is bias against one type of skin color among whites and blacks. The answer is yes. In a world in which there is no anti-black bias (just bias towards people who look like self) blacks would be just as likely to view dark-skinned people favorably as whites are to view white people favorably. The results of the study show they aren’t. > > Blacks are more likely than whites to view dark skin favorably, but both groups taken together are more likely to view light skin favorably. Right. As much as I’d like all races to sing kumbaya and have a cook out on the lawn in the summer, I do realize that racism hasn’t gone anywhere just yet. Like I said earlier, I \*do \*believe the reason most white children had negative associations of the dark-skinned pictures was racial bias. It would be similar to (as in **Pleonast** ’s analogy) making small children identify the fastest Prius vehicle, all of which are identical except for color. If 76% of them said the red one, the way 76% of the the small white children identified the darkest pictures as dumb, I would think the children thought that red cars were necessarily faster than others. Here are a few things I found interesting when looking at the answers to the questions by race. In general, black kids showed no bias either way, while the white children did. When the black kids were asked to identify traits such as “smart” or “nice” or “good,” the results weren’t terribly skewed. In fact, for “good,” it was split right down the middle: 37.14% each for the two darkest and the two light lightest. Among the white children, over half decided the two lightest were “good.” What was interesting, though, was that half the black kids identified the two darkest pictures as “dumb” and 57.14% chose the darkest pictures as the one they’d most want to pay with. Also 13.89% of them identified the two darkest colors as the ones most children want, like and think looks good. It seems like black kids generally show little bias, except for in a few areas, but they seem to be well aware that _other_ kids have biases. Fascinating stuff. Edit: **Freud** , some of the children did not answer. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/58 "2010-05-20T18:05:34Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Mohammed has that je ne sais quoi that keeps people from mocking him, and that Tom Cruise really wishes he had. We went with - Mohammad is not depicted in Islamic art, so a picture of Mohammad would not look like other pictures - since there are none - and would not be identified as one. Interestingly, [the word Allah is a common find in veggies and fish](http://www.factjo.com/Manbar_En/MemberDetails.aspx?id=29). ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/59 "2010-05-20T18:07:55Z")
My son came home and asked, “Dad, why are whites and Mexicans the dumb races and Asians and Indians are the smart ones?” We started discussing race, culture, and SES at that point. My now two sons are minorities in our local schools, where most of the students are Asian (Chinese and Korean) or Indian. It has been an interesting experience for me to deal with teachers who make assumptions about my sons because they are white. The white teachers assume that the white students are not as smart, as compared the Asian and Indian students in the classrooms. This attitude trickles down to the kids, and I find myself fighting it. NOT what I expected to deal with as a white parent in suburbia! ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011/60 "2010-05-20T18:14:13Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > In a world in which there is no anti-black bias (just bias towards people who look like self) blacks would be just as likely to view dark-skinned people favorably as whites are to view white people favorably. That is not clear to me at all. Humans do very poorly at picking things at “random”, which is what they’d need to do to remove correlation between the questions and the answers. That is why they needed to have “control” questions, ones that are race-neutral or nonsensical. > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But does a child even know enough to say, “It’s a false/trick question”? Or are they just answering because there has to be a right answer? That’s flaw in the study I noticed. It makes the results inconclusive. I’m trying to determine how they handled non-responders. It looks like they are excluded from the statistical analysis. If that’s what they did, then they excluded some non-biased answers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-race/540011.md?page=4)