# How do you think PJ will ruin RotK? (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 1, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989 "2003-10-01T21:27:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/41 "2003-10-03T03:09:24Z")
PJ **is** the youngest member of _The Family Circus_, after all… ---
**Author:** ![Erroneous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71c47a/32.png) [@Erroneous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erroneous)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/42 "2003-10-03T03:28:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eonwe \* > **Not to knock your interpretation, but you’re flat-out wrong.** Oh sure, quote the BOOK. Ruin my fun. 🙂 Still, I think it’s clear that Sauron wasn’t worried that the ring would be destroyed willfully by Frodo, instead he was worried because the ring was inside Mt. Doom. If Frodo had put the ring on anywhere else in Mordor, Sauron would have been thrilled. Anyway, back on topic, I think the very ending of the film is going to problematic for Jackson. If he doesn’t end with “I’m home”, then that’s probably going to be a major griping-point for a lot of fans. On the other hand, there’s lots of interesting stuff in the appendices that could go into the ending of the film, but it would have to take place after Sam’s return to the Hobbiton. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/43 "2003-10-03T03:30:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RikWriter \* > \*\*Truth hurts, huh? \*\* What part of my rant didn’t you understand? I explicitly mention some points where massive divergance occurs that I’m fine with, and go on to describe the problems with internal coherence and general idiocy that arise from other points of divergance. How in hell does that make me a literalist? I don’t care if he changes things. I just don’t want him to make things stupid, which, at points, he has. So, what does it say for your critical thinking ability that you apparently think that part of making fine adaptions is introducing unnecessary incoherence into the plot? ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/44 "2003-10-03T04:17:22Z")
By introducing the Middle Earth race of Smurfs. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/45 "2003-10-03T04:23:37Z")
I dunno, **Gorsnak**. I found your description of how it should have happened to be pretty confusing. Took me a couple of reads to sort out who was where for what reason. I’m not sure how that could have been clearly explained cinematically. As I recall the way it was changed in the movie, Eomar thought the invasion was coming from the North. But I haven’t seen it since it was in the movies, and could be mistaken there. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/46 "2003-10-03T04:34:42Z")
Yes, well, 5 lines of ranting prose != 45 minutes of screentime. If Eomer thought the invasion was coming from north of the point he was at when he said that, he was extremely confused. Isengard lies pretty much due west from the southern edge of the Fangorn. Not that non-fans would know that, but in the movie he is apparently a non-player till Gandalf fetches him back. Tell me, what kind of sense does that make? This is the man who will be king, abandoning his people in their hour of need. Makes no sense. Why do the riders follow him when their families are being burned out, as seen in other scenes? Makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/47 "2003-10-03T06:30:18Z")
_:: tiptoes into thread ::_ Is anyone else reminded of _The Simpsons_ Comic Book Guy? _:: tiptoes out of thread ::_ ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/48 "2003-10-03T09:40:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RikWriter \* > No, it should stay as it was a great scene. \*\* Please. In the middle of a battle, Legolas decides to do his Marty McFly on the hoverboard routine? Why not drop a chandelier on a group of Orcs? Or maybe cover the approachway to Helms Deep with oil or ball bearings so the Orcs comicly slip and slide all over “whoo-Whhooo-WHHHHHAaaaaaaaaaa!” ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/49 "2003-10-03T11:20:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gorsnak \* > \*\*What part of my rant didn’t you understand? \*\* I understood it completely. I just believe you to be dead wrong. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/50 "2003-10-03T11:21:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > \*\*Please. In the middle of a battle, Legolas decides to do his Marty McFly on the hoverboard routine? Why not drop a chandelier on a group of Orcs? Or maybe cover the approachway to Helms Deep with oil or ball bearings so the Orcs comicly slip and slide all over “whoo-Whhooo-WHHHHHAaaaaaaaaaa!” \*\* Sorry, I disagree with your characterization of the scene. It was a great action sequence and I congratulate Jackson for including it. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/51 "2003-10-03T12:22:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*Right. Jackson should have spent millions of dollars to create at least three whole new sets, fill them with actors and/or special effects, and shoot and print and edit footage from all of them, then insert them into an already over-long film that’s already going to be picked apart for all the crap he had to cut out, thereby interupting the narrative flow and confusing the hell out of the 95% of the audience who _aren’t_ hard-core Tolkien fanatics, all so you don’t have to see any elves in your precious Helm’s Deep. That’s an _excellent_ solution to an all but non-exsistent problem! \*\* Yes, I can well see that having the Fellowship’s token Elf and Dwarf wondering about what is happening back in Elf and Dwarf country would make for much confusion when there was a cut to battle scenes involving lots of Elves and Dwarves. :rolleyes: And, as I said, I think there’s the odd five minutes of footage that could have been cut, if _your precious_ time was a problem (my, inserting “your precious” into a sentence adds weight to an argument, doesn’t it?) :rolleyes: As to costs versus time: the set-up costs plainly didn’t put PJ off the Sauron battle scene in FoR, for about a five-minute sequence IIRC. **Gorsnak** : well said. Obviously PJ decided that having Eomer ride out with a hundred Riders, run down the Uruk-Hai and then return home to be put in the slammer just when he was the only one at Edoras advocating doing a darned thing about Saruman would have been out of the question. :rolleyes: I enjoyed T2T as a visual spectacle, but I winced at how much the book had been buggered about with. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/52 "2003-10-03T13:23:30Z")
Someone makes up a story. Someone else tells someone the story, changing it slightly. That sounds pretty par for myths and legends and how they get handed down and passed around, something Tolkien himself was very familiar with. I’d bet Tolkien would be more forgiving and understanding than some of you people. I wonder if the Extended Edition of TTT will make any of you feel better. Probably not, but hope springs eternal. All I know for sure is that the first movie inspired me to read the books (which I loved), and that I’ll be in the theater all day Tuesday December 16, watching and loving the Extended editions of FOTR, TTT, then (if my heart doesn’t burst from excitement), The Return of the King. I’ll leave the books (literally and figuratively) at home, to make sure there’s no nasty, scowling scritchy notebook in my head being filled with changes and additions and deletions and other anal bullshit that will keep me from being fully immersed and in heaven while I’m watching Tolkien’s vision brought to loving, beautiful, glorious, thrilling life. If some of you would rather go on a pout and miss out on this moment in history, you have my condolences in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/53 "2003-10-03T13:55:19Z")
well he’s back wrote: > [@](#): > > -Grima must kill Saruman, don’t you all think? No! no, no, no! I don’t mind that on the face of it, but it symbolizes the cutting of the Scouring, which radically alters the nature of the whole story (not to mention kicking major arse). If, for instance, he had killed him on the Greenway instead of in Nan Curunir, but they showed him killing him at Orthanc anyway, i wouldnt have a problem with it, but at least imply that the Scouring _could_ have happened! If Grima kills Saruman on screen, I will boo in the theatre. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/54 "2003-10-03T14:08:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tremmie \* > \*\*Hmm you are not serious are you? you don’t actually think that massive battle the first five minutes of FOTR are actually people in costumes right? Huge armies fighting each other = entirely computer simulated and animated. \*\* You don’t really know how those scenes were shot, do you? Do a google on “+MASSIVE +LOTR”. It requires real actors, real costumes and a real set. Sure, it takes 50 people and multiplies them into 10,000, but you have to start with something. ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/55 "2003-10-03T14:52:32Z")
Sorry Munch, but I think you’ve got the wrong end of the stick here. MASSIVE does not multiply shots of real actors. What MASSIVE does is allow you to create huge _entirely digital_ battles, using entirely digital actors and landscapes. It is possible to film a MASSIVE scene without ever using a single real actor, costume or set. See, for example: [http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,56778,00.html](http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,56778,00.html) [http://www.massivesoftware.com/massive.html](http://www.massivesoftware.com/massive.html) Mind you, in the films real actors and sets are often added into the foreground of the MASSIVE shots make it look more real. But the vast majority of orcs in the Helm’s Deep wide shots have never existed outside a computer. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/56 "2003-10-03T15:09:15Z")
Gotcha. That’s what I was thinking of. Thanks for the links. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/57 "2003-10-03T22:52:48Z")
> [@](#): > > I’d bet Tolkien would be more forgiving and understanding than some of you people. Actually, I flat out guarantee that Tolkien would be far _less_ forgiving than I, having read his comments on a proposed screenplay, some of which apparently diverged from the book in ways similar to PJ’s treatment. Quite scathing. I distinctly remember him fuming about Aragorn having a (complete, functional) sword prior to Narsil’s reforging. _He_ was a stodgy literalist 🙂 Who’s pouting? I saw both movies on the big screen, and will see the upcoming one as well. Just because I think there are areas where things could have been done better doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate what has been done right. But I cannot figuratively leave the books at home. I know them too well to not instantly notice departures. Some departures don’t grate; others do, for reasons I have attempted to explain. Why are the only alternatives either thinking these movies are the most perfect things ever or being a stodgy literalist? Why is there no space between these extremes to recognize both the necessity (and indeed, desirability) of altering things to fit the media and the shortcomings of some of those alterations? ---
**Author:** ![HDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bb73d2/32.png) [@HDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HDS)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/58 "2003-10-03T23:24:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I think the only raping going on is the violation of the stodgy, unimaginative, narrow-minded Tolkienistas that start honking like alarmed geese at the slightest change to their Precious. _jumps into thread_ I’d hate to see their reaction to the Library of Moria, then 😃 _jumps back out_ ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/59 "2003-10-04T02:58:09Z")
\<\< What was worst? Maybe when Aragon falls of a cliff and everyone thinks he’s dead? It’s like the filmmakers forgot that Gandalf also fell down a cliff and everybody thought he was dead, which we have already seen, not once, but twice. \>\> Plus the scene in Moria where they all think Frodo’s been killed by the cave-troll, but he was protected by the mithril armour. Plus, Aragorn et al finding the burning bodies of the orcs and thinking Pippin and Merry are dead, but then finds their tracks. Plus (one presumes) in RotK when Frodo’s been stung by Shelob and Sam thinks he’s dead… Seems to be a recurring theme with the movies: Oh, horrors, he’s dead… wait, no, he’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/60 "2003-10-04T03:04:13Z")
I just hope they give Gimli back some dignity, that’s all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989.md?page=4)