# How do you think PJ will ruin RotK? (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 1, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989 "2003-10-01T21:27:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/61 "2003-10-04T03:57:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > \*\*Seems to be a recurring theme with the movies: Oh, horrors, he’s dead… wait, no, he’s not. \*\* “Alas, poor Frodo! I shall avenge your death!” “I’m not quite dead.” “Alas, your soon-to-come-to-pass death shall be avenged!” “Actually, I’m feeling better.” \ “Alas, poor Frodo, your death… and recovery and sudden relapse into death… shall not be in vain!” ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/62 "2003-10-04T06:05:35Z")
> [@](#): > > The only scene that really pissed me off in the first movie was the telekinetic wizard fight. Where the hell did that come from, and would it have been possible to make the Wise look any more foolish? Please explain how it made the Wise look foolish. What did you expect, they sit down and play a game of chess? ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/63 "2003-10-04T08:20:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*Please explain how it made the Wise look foolish. What did you expect, they sit down and play a game of chess? \*\* I’m not a rabid fan of the books. I do love them, but don’t think it necessary that the movies absolutely _have_ to follow the books. Nevertheless, the whole Saruman-Gandalf showdown struck me as being very, very stupid. Gandalf and Saruman are supposed to be the wisest of the wise, wizards with unimaginable power, tall, stately, unflappable beings. They are thousands of years old, part of the White Council, and I believe it was suggested at some points in the books that as Maians, they had far greater powers than they ever displayed on earth. Given all this, to see them scrapping like ordinary street ruffians (admittedly ones with magical staffs) was very odd. It seemed…beneath their dignity. ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/64 "2003-10-04T09:06:56Z")
I can’t for the life of me remember how Tolkien depicted this showdown himself, though. Please tell me he didn’t make them do acrobatics!! ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/65 "2003-10-04T14:16:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aasna \* > \*\*I can’t for the life of me remember how Tolkien depicted this showdown himself, though. Please tell me he didn’t make them do acrobatics!! \*\* I do hope you understand that just because you would have done it another way doesn’t make the way it was done in the movie wrong. Jackson had to show the duel SOMEHOW. Would you have preferred a Return of the Jedi-type blue lightning bolt duel? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/66 "2003-10-04T15:24:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RikWriter \* > I do hope you understand that just because you would have done it another way doesn’t make the way it was done in the movie wrong. Jackson had to show the duel SOMEHOW. Would you have preferred a Return of the Jedi-type blue lightning bolt duel? Sheesh. There’s no need for a “duel” at all. Why would the wizards fight when they both knew what the outcome would be? Gandalf recounts what happened during the Council of Elrond (whose depiction, I might add, was my other great disappointment in the first flick): > [@](#): > > They took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc, in the place where Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars. No mental wizard flinging anywhere to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/67 "2003-10-04T15:35:29Z")
Ah, so you think people would have liked the scene better had Gandalf gone along without a fight, showing no resistance whatsoever? Sorry, I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989/68 "2003-10-04T17:20:35Z")
I thought the Wizards’ Duel was a variation from the books that was absolutely appropriate, although somewhat shocking, for two reasons: (1) It gives the message that these “old men” are more than what they seem. It neatly sets the stage for Gandalf’s later fight with the Balrog (shown in TTT, and wasn’t that grand?) and on the front lines of the armies in RotK. (2) Movies are visual. Books are verbal. Movies need to find verbal expressions of what the books can say in many words. A movie that’s too talky ain’t gonna be well-received. I think Peter Jackson translate the verbal to visual very well. Another outstanding example, from FotR: at the Council of Elrond, when we watch the dispute about what to do being reflected in the ring. A great visual representation of what would otherwise be verbal. How awful would it have been to have Frodo thinking to himself, “Gosh! They’re all fighting! The ring is spawning this jealousy and destructiveness!” How much neater to just show a picture of the Council shaking their fists at each other, reflected in the ring? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-think-pj-will-ruin-rotk-spoilers/204989.md?page=3)