# how do you windows users put up with this? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811 "2005-03-03T22:16:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/81 "2005-03-04T22:34:54Z")
Hey, **mhendo** , it’s all about fighting the ignorance. Yes, no? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/82 "2005-03-04T22:50:56Z")
as i stated earlier, i intended this thread to be more of a query as to how the pc user crowd dealt with spyware, i admit i was a little pissed off in the OP and may have come across a little more severe than i intended, but i was simply querying how spyware is dealt with, yes i did ask how windows got so popular in a confrontational manner, but what do you expect from an admitted Mac fanatic? 😉 (hey, at least i admit it) and i have actually been looking at some bare bones pc boxes (e-machines and entry level compaqs mostly), knowing full well that they’re on the lower end of the quality spectrum, if i can find one that’s priced right, i may pick one up out of curiosity (and to run my old copy of Star Trek Armada, i’ve been feeling the need to play as the Borg and assimilate the Federation ships, and ST; A isn’t available on the Mac) i figure if i know how to fix both Mac and PC hardware, it’ll make me more versatile in the workplace… here’s another question… on a Mac, reinstalling the OS is considered a last resort, after all other diagnostics (Norton, Tech Tool Pro, Drive 10, DiskWarrior, Data Rescue, etc…) have failed, wheras i get the impression (through secondhand info, probably bad) that reinstalling windows is a standard diagnostic routine lets say the pc i’m working on has some low level system software problems and partially boots into the OS, but hangs at the desktop, starting up in Safe Mode allows it to boot normally, booting into another user account yields the same results, so it appears to be an OS level problem… on the Mac, the first thing i’d do is boot off a known good FireWire device with a valid system folder on it (an iPod or standard FW hard drive), if the problem is gone, it’s an OS problem, i’d then run my software diagnostic/repair apps from my test drive and repair the OS on the main drive (DW first, then Apple Disk Repair, then TTP, followed up by Norton, just to check with 4 different utilities) if the diagnostic apps gave it a clean bill of health, i’d reboot to see if the problem is gone if the problem exists on the FW drive, i’d shut down, disconnect the internal hard drive and reboot off the FW drive, if the problem’s gone, i’d shut down, try a known good bootable internal IDE drive and reboot, if the problem is gone, the issue would be localized in the stock drive, as i would have ruled out the IDE bus as a problem, only at that point would i consider wiping the drive and starting over, and at that point it’d be to narrow it down to either a physical drive problem or a formatting/data structure problem how would the above scenario be troubleshot on a PC, can they boot off an external FW drive with a known good copy of windows? or is this ability unique to non-ms apps? i’m genuinely curious here… oh, and yes, the Mac is a cult (but a _good_ cult 😉 ), but the others dont want me to te…oof…aarg…EEP! nevermind 😉 ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/83 "2005-03-04T23:05:53Z")
\*\*Stonebow: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **AHunter3** > > > [@](#): > > > > I’m just saying that even if it is 6 to 8 times more expensive to buy a Mac, that’s no big deal, it’s worth it. > > See, now this is just crazy talk. And I’m not a rabid pc-user, either In fact, I don’t know that I’ve ever been moved to post in one of these threads. > > You might convince me that Mac is a superior product for certain apps (unlikely, but possible). But to ignore the price issue is, to me, ridiculous, since it’s probably the first or second consideration when purchasing a system. Not to me. If, hypothetically speaking, Apple went out of business _right now_ and, furthermore, every Mac in existence vaporized, so that I’d definitely be using a PC from then on, I’d pay a developer $5000 just to develop a Windows hack that would get rid of those _ **STUPID GODDAM** _ “application windows”, the window-that-encloses-the-document window thing that permeates the Windows interface, except for the menus. I should have said worth it _to me_, I suppose, but I thought that was obvious from the context. > [@](#): > > Nor does it make sense to ignore PC gaming as a huge market. I love to game, most of my adult friends love to game, and if they don’t, their kids do. Oh yeah, if I cared about gaming, I’d definitely want a PC, even if I kept the Mac for everything else and only used the PC for gaming I’d rather have a PC than some bloody gaming console. Computer games I’ve played and approx how often I’ve played them, in descending order: _1000 Miles (Mille Bornes)_, a Macintosh black and white card game: 500 times _Mouse Stampede_, a Mac System 3 era arcade game: 500 times _Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets_ (PC version, my girlfriend’s XP box): 100 times _The Uninvited_, a Macintosh System 3 black and white game: 100 times _Jeopardy_, Mac System 7 era, 100 times _Hearts Deluxe_, a Macintosh System 7 era card game: 50 times _Barney Carnage_, a MacOS 8 vintage shoot-em-up (yes, _that_ Barney): 25 times _Leather Goddesses of Phobos_, a Mac System 2 era command-line text game: 15 times _Myst_, MacOS 7 era: maybe 3-4 times _Stunt Copter_, a Mac System 4 era game: couple times That’s pretty much it. As you can see, the kind of computer games I go for (to the extent that I do so at all) are such that if a PC version were all that were available, I could run them in emulation (and probably in MSDOS 3.0). ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/84 "2005-03-04T23:08:07Z")
> [@iamthewalrus(:3=](#): > > This, of course, overlooks the fact that you bought Apple’s 20" monitor for $999, but are perfectly happy with some other monitor for your PC. You bought 4 1GB sticks of RAM from Apple for $400-something, but are fine with cheap-ass slow RAM in your other machine. Doing a fair cost comparison would not only bring the cost of the PC up, but would also bring the cost of the Mac down. This does of course raise the relevant point that Apple rip you off for upgrades - the same four 1GB sticks of DDR400 that Apple charge you $1450 for would set you back less than $800 if you bought them from, say, [crucial.com](http://crucial.com). A near 100% markup just for installation is a bit hefty, if you ask me. But then, it’s not like Dell don’t do the same thing on their site. Memory upgrades are a huge scam, no matter who you’re buying from. On the other hand, I reckon **Freejooky** will blow his budget on two Opteron 248s alone. By my reckoning: 2 Opteron 248 @ $478 ea. 1 20" Studio display @ $999 4 1GB DDR400 @ $199 ea. 1 Double Socket 939 Mobo @ ~$300 (bit of a guess, this one) 1 Cheapo case @ $60 1 Radeon 9600 XT @ $125 2 250GB 7200rpm drives @ £130 ea. Misc crap like dvds and stuff @ $100 comes to about $3,500, in comparison with a similarly spec’d Mac’s $5,800. If you upgrade the memory yourself, the Mac comes down to just over 5 grand. And I’ve been conservative on the PC bits. So yeah, the Mac is a lot more expensive. But nowhere near a factor of 6. And like I say, the above PC price includes crap peripherals. Incidentally, can I get a badge for the next iteration of this thread, certifying me as a PC User Wot Defended Macs? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/85 "2005-03-04T23:17:58Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > By “games/software,” you’re refrring to _Windows_ games/software, of course – I run 100% of current **Mac** games and software just fine. Man does not live on _Marathon_ alone. ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/86 "2005-03-04T23:23:25Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > This does of course raise the relevant point that Apple rip you off for upgrades - the same four 1GB sticks of DDR400 that Apple charge you $1450 for would set you back less than $800 if you bought them from, say, [crucial.com](http://crucial.com). A near 100% markup just for installation is a bit hefty, if you ask me. But then, it’s not like Dell don’t do the same thing on their site. Memory upgrades are a huge scam, no matter who you’re buying from. heck, even I (an Apple Certified Mac Repair Tech) agree with this, Apple’s prices on ram are way out of line, they’re ripping you off, you can find much better ram prices going with local vendors (Micron, Crucial, Data Memory Systems, etc…), Apple _does_ price gouge the customer on ram ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/87 "2005-03-05T00:35:22Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > By “games/software,” you’re refrring to _Windows_ games/software, of course – I run **100% of current Mac games** and software just fine. What, all 3 of em? ---
**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/88 "2005-03-05T00:55:18Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > ,snip, However, your one specific example of one instance in which PC’s are inferior: When you buy a new machine or reformat a disk, how long does it take you to restore everything to its previous state? On a Mac: hook up Firewire and copy the disk. On a PC: Copy what you can, then reinstall every piece of software so that the registry stuff all works. > > As for the Mac Mini, I’m still trying to parse $500.00 as “megabucks”. Particularly as the operating system and iLife is included. . As far as restoring I have not yet crossed that bridge (except for years ago and I’m not sure but I don’t remember it taking an inordinate amount of time). $499.00 for a paperweight is in my book “megabucks” and iLife does not come with it, iLife is another $80.00, look at the cheapest Dell PC (or whatever PC) and see what you can get for $579.00. When come back, bring reality. Unclviny ---
**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/89 "2005-03-05T01:28:51Z")
Here is a POS PC that I found at Circuit Shitty, $410. - rebates = $360. final cost and just look at the specs [http://www.circuitcity.com/rpsm/oid/114522/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do](http://www.circuitcity.com/rpsm/oid/114522/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do) Unclviny ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/90 "2005-03-05T01:52:24Z")
Most of you geezers probably just word process or do simple code/video editing on your comps, so I don’t see what all the fuss is about. I would just like to add that, yes, a gaming nerd needs his PC like a diabetic needs his sweet, sweet insulin. ---
**Author:** ![wheelie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b4bc9f/32.png) [@wheelie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheelie)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/91 "2005-03-05T01:57:34Z")
> [@unclviny](#): > > . > > As far as restoring I have not yet crossed that bridge (except for years ago and I’m not sure but I don’t remember it taking an inordinate amount of time). $499.00 for a paperweight is in my book “megabucks” and **iLife does not come with it, iLife is another $80.00** , look at the cheapest Dell PC (or whatever PC) and see what you can get for $579.00. > > When come back, bring reality. > > Unclviny [Reality.](http://www.apple.com/macmini/software.html) iLife '05 is pre-loaded on all currently shipping Macs. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/92 "2005-03-05T02:09:01Z")
> [@](#): > > comes to about $3,500, in comparison with a similarly spec’d Mac’s $5,800. If you upgrade the memory yourself, the Mac comes down to just over 5 grand. And I’ve been conservative on the PC bits. So yeah, the Mac is a lot more expensive. But nowhere near a factor of 6. And like I say, the above PC price includes crap peripherals. Yeah, Freejooky’s specs and numbers were way off, but still… saving $2300 is WELL worth the oh-so-difficult “hassle” of downloading Firefox. Let’s see… takes about five minutes to get to the sight and download the installer, two minutes to install it, and… oh, you’re done. Seven minutes of your life. Is that REALLY worth two grand? ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/93 "2005-03-05T02:19:30Z")
> [@unclviny](#): > > $499.00 for a paperweight is in my book. It may be a paperweight in your book, but in my book it’s a very nice, very useful machine which I can use to work on my web pages and artwork (which earn me _money_) with Photoshop and Dreamweaver, tinker in Garageband, transfer my LP collection over to CD, and a multitude of other things. I’m not expecting it to be your cup of tea, but for a little “paperweight,” it sure does a helluva lot. > [@](#): > > look at the cheapest Dell PC (or whatever PC) and see what you can get for $579.00. But I don’t like what I can get on a cheapest Dell, because I prefer OS X to Windows XP, and the Dell doesn’t run OS X. (Not that I am bashing XP, I praised it earlier—it is good for what it is—but OS X is my _favorite_.) That’s the thing I can’t always seem to get through to some people. It’s like telling an opera fan that they can get really cheap tickets to the Rolling Stones (or, telling a Rolling Stones fan that they can get really cheap tickets to _The Magic Flute_). Sounds great, but it _ain’t what I want_. You enjoy whatever it is you want to enjoy. You spend your money the way you like. You may think that I’d be “saving” money to buy the same way that you do, but to me, it’s saving money on something that isn’t my _favorite_. It’s not what I want. Now, to those who know their own preference, and it happens to be Windows, bully for you. I’m not trying to convince you to change your mind. > [@SPOOFE](#): > > Seven minutes of your life. Is that REALLY worth two grand? It’s not the seven minutes, it’s the several years using an computer with an OS that’s not my favorite. It’s like being a die-hard opera fan and only listening to the Rolling Stones or The Grateful Dead for a few years. It may be great, but it’s _not what I want_. If it took a few extra thousand to be able to listen to opera instead, I daresay that a lot of opera fans would pay it, and be happy to do so. That’s how a lot of us OS X fans feel about it too. ---
**Author:** ![wheelie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b4bc9f/32.png) [@wheelie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheelie)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/94 "2005-03-05T02:37:29Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Huh? The last Mac that came without builtin ethernet was probably 10 years ago. According to [Mactracker](http://www.mactracker.ca/), the Twentieth Anniversary Macintosh had no ethernet and was discontinued in March 1998. The Powerbook 2400 C was the last laptop without it, discontinued May 1998. My '91 Quadra 700 has built-in ethernet (AAUI-15, RJ-45 adapters are/were cheap). That was a ridiculously expensive machine. $6,000 for a 25 MHz 68040 with 4 Mb RAM, expandable to 68 Mb. At least it came with a keyboard and mouse! ---
**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/95 "2005-03-05T02:41:14Z")
> [@wheelie](#): > > [Reality.](http://www.apple.com/macmini/software.html) iLife '05 is pre-loaded on all currently shipping Macs. I stand corrected, a site I looked at yesterday had it shipping for $499. and iLife was an extra $80. Seriously $499. for a 1.25G computer with no peripherals?. Unclviny ---
**Author:** ![wheelie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b4bc9f/32.png) [@wheelie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheelie)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/96 "2005-03-05T03:44:18Z")
> [@jinwicked](#): > > Anyway, I can’t stand those macs, mostly because I have no idea how those things don’t overheat and melt they cram so much shit into those tiny containers. I like being able to easily upgrade parts when I want/need to and not having to having to slice my hand off or find special parts in the process. [Who you callin’ tiny?](http://www.spymac.com/gallery/show_photo.php?picid=361534) (For scale, the monitor is a 21" Viewsonic G810) All of the upgrades I have done have been with off-the-shelf parts from CompUSA that will work in PC’s. It runs at about 130ºF processor temp, even with both proc’s running full out. Oh, and all edges of the sheet metal have been rounded over, I’ve cut the living shit out of my hands on PC’s, especially the cheap pieces of shit I worked on in the oilfield, but nary a scratch from my Macs. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/97 "2005-03-05T04:43:36Z")
> [@wheelie](#): > > Oh, and all edges of the sheet metal have been rounded over, I’ve cut the living shit out of my hands on PC’s, especially the cheap pieces of shit I worked on in the oilfield, but nary a scratch from my Macs. This kind of thing is exactly why I have such high regard for Apple! (It’s also why Macs cost more.) As I said before, Apple thinks things through and designs their products for the benefit of its customers, even in ways that many of them may never notice. I have huge regard for Apple for this very reason. I wish more companies designed their products this way. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/98 "2005-03-05T07:09:26Z")
> [@midget](#): > > Erp…a bit of googling shows that the Logitech MX series supports Macs. I can still rant about the one-button STANDARD though… Yes, because we all know that, after spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on a new computer, there’s _no room whatsoever_ in the budget for a cheap-ass USB multi-button mouse of your choice. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/99 "2005-03-05T09:23:30Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > This kind of thing is exactly why I have such high regard for Apple! (It’s also why Macs cost more.) As I said before, Apple thinks things through and designs their products for the benefit of its customers, even in ways that many of them may never notice. I have huge regard for Apple for this very reason. I wish more companies designed their products this way. You mean like the umpteen different PC case companies that offer cases with rounded-off sheet metal do? You buy a lousy case, you get poor quality; you buy a good case, you get good quality. It’s not like there’s some law that sez all PC hardware has to be mediocre. ---
**Author:** ![aenplusone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@aenplusone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aenplusone)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811/100 "2005-03-05T09:38:26Z")
> [@MacTech](#): > > XP is just 98SE with a “Fisher Price™” interface on it That would be winME. By far the worst windows since 3.0 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-you-windows-users-put-up-with-this/292811.md?page=6)