# How does a Lawyer end up defending Scum™ **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736 "2007-12-30T21:25:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/21 "2007-12-31T01:54:34Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] Any stats to support this? [/QUOTE] Nope. I bet you dollars to donuts he ain’t a lawyer either. In other words he has no idea what he is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/22 "2007-12-31T01:59:43Z")
In the US even the “scum” have Constitutional rights that need to be protected, lest those rights be taken away from the others as well. For example, Below is a link to a recent article in the Cincinnati Enquirer about lawyers attacking the new “Adam Walsh Act” as unconstitutional as it applies to previously convicted sex offenders. [Link](http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071230/NEWS01/712300387/1077/COL02) While I am not in favor of sex offenders, even they have rights. ---
**Author:** ![karstedm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@karstedm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/karstedm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/23 "2007-12-31T02:07:06Z")
_"Imagine living in a country where the government could take all your assets, lock you up, torture you, kill you, and do the same to your family and friends, simply because it dose not like you or what you believe in. "_ Ohhh… wait a minute… we already do. Seriously tho: There are 2 (3?) ways this happens (with a few variations on the basic themes) #1: The “scumbag” in question has a whole lot of money and buys you (possible examples: OJ Simpson, Peter Busch) or #2: You are appointed to the case (ALL lawyers, as members of the bar, _have_ to do a certain amount of pro bono work every year, a lawyer does not have much choice in the matter. The 3rd(?) way is actually a matter of choice (with out a choice), and that is as a PD. One chooses to be a PD, but you don’t get to choose your cases. Of the 3 above choices, #2 is the last way you want to go. If you are charged with murder, you could end up with a corporate real estate lawyer defending you. NOT GOOD. If you have lots of money, go for some body like Art Margulis (costs $$$$$$$) but if you are an accountant who went to Minneapolis on a businness trip, came back to town under an assumed name, stripped your wife naked (or according to their story, got her to strip herslf naked), tied her up in a chair in the garage where you “accidentally” strangled her to death during a “sex game”, then “panicked” and burnt the house down around her, then flew BACK to Minneapolis under the same assumed name… Art can get you off with 7 years for involuntary manslaughter. (Art… if I ever get in trouble… he’s my man) If you dont have $$$$$$$, go the PD route. A freind of mine got a mob hit man off on a technicality, and he STILL owes her a hit (his promise)… Her husband ought to be \*very \* careful… Truth: Lawyers live to a … higher (different?) standard than the rest of us. Their first oath of loyalty is to the LAW. That oath gaurantees _everybody \* the best defense a lawyer can give, guilty or otherwise, whether they have money or not… but if they don’t have money, and the lawyer doesn’t have money… and the Prosecution has **all the resources \*\* of the state (or feds) behind them… Who do you think is going to win? Look, my ex went to prison, her husband spent two years on probation… why? because they f**_ed with my sons. AND… I had $30,000 to blow on the whole thing. Not because I was smarter than they were… but because I was a little more knowledgable about the law than they (they had a whole lot more money to blow than I did($100,000+)… I had just enuf to not “go away”), AND they were REALLY stupid (or too drugged up). I was able to get the state to work for me too (as a divorced father, no easy task)(she is, after all, _their_ “client” )(don’t ask…) It is really simple (see if you can get your mind wrapped around this) there is “justice” (which you find in the streets of south St Louis) and there is “Just Us” (which you find anywhere the money gathers)… “The Law is a whore…” as somebody much wiser than I once said. And if my “disgust/appreciation” for the Law is not quite clear enuf for all… Get a job. Money, after all, fixes everything. tom ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/24 "2007-12-31T02:13:37Z")
[QUOTE=karstedm] ALL lawyers, as members of the bar, _have_ to do a certain amount of pro bono work every year, a lawyer does not have much choice in the matter. [/QUOTE] They do? In every state? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/25 "2007-12-31T02:22:41Z")
[QUOTE=karstedmALL lawyers, as members of the bar, _have_ to do a certain amount of pro bono work every year, a lawyer does not have much choice in the matter. . . . If you are charged with murder, you could end up with a corporate real estate lawyer defending you.[/QUOTE] Do you have a cite for this? In which jurisdictions must a lawyer perform a certain amount of work pro bono each year? In which juristictions must lawyers who are not criminal lawyers act pro bono as criminal lawyers? Who was the corporate real estate lawyer was forced to act pro bono in a murder case? Given that this is General Questions, I suggest that factual answers would be preferable to invented assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/26 "2007-12-31T02:27:09Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Nope. I bet you dollars to donuts he ain’t a lawyer either. [/QUOTE] You’d win, for he is not a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/27 "2007-12-31T02:30:33Z")
I’ll help- it looks like you are in Missouri. So far, all I can find is this- > [@](#): > > Rule 4-6.1 Pro Bono Publico Service: > > ``` > A lawyer should render public interest legal service. A lawyer may discharge this responsibility by providing professional services at no fee or a reduced fee to persons of limited means or to public service or charitable groups or organizations, by service in activities for improving the law, the legal system or the legal profession, and by financial support for organizations that provide legal services to persons of limited means. > > ``` It’s not really helpful, as it says that attorneys “should” take pro bono cases, but doesn’t seem to insist on it… ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/28 "2007-12-31T02:51:08Z")
Is it just me or do threads about lawyers generate a lot of ignorance to fight? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/29 "2007-12-31T02:54:29Z")
And Missouri does not cover all lawyers, and it does not suggest that a lawyer must act outside of that lawyer’s expertise. General pronouncements that encourage giving something back are a far cry from the assertion that a person up on murder charges could end up with a corporate real estate lawyer performing compulsory pro bono work. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/30 "2007-12-31T02:55:03Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Is it just me or do threads about lawyers generate a lot of ignorance to fight? [/QUOTE] It’s not you ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/31 "2007-12-31T03:02:34Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] And Missouri does not cover all lawyers, and it does not suggest that a lawyer must act outside of that lawyer’s expertise. General pronouncements that encourage giving something back are a far cry from the assertion that a person up on murder charges could end up with a corporate real estate lawyer performing compulsory pro bono work. [/QUOTE] Exactly. I didn’t want to just leap out and yell “bullshit” or anything. I thought maybe he had heard of the MO Bar’s suggestion and misinterpreted it… As far as the “corporate lawyer defending you from a murder charge” thing, I think he pulled that out of his ass. He’s obviously had a very bad legal experience. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/32 "2007-12-31T03:05:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Muffin \*\*: Any stats to support this? > > \*\*askeptic \*\*: Nope. I bet you dollars to donuts he ain’t a lawyer either. In other words he has no idea what he is talking about. Oh, come on, guys, it was a joke. Americans vs British sense of humour. sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/33 "2007-12-31T03:07:24Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Is it just me or do threads about lawyers generate a lot of ignorance to fight? [/QUOTE] Probably arises from so many people who find themselves dealing with the pointy end of the law having miserable expereinces at best, and miserable outcomes at worst, in a system that they do not really understand, in which the judge usually does not see everything through the same lens as the person standing before the court. Out of it all comes a lot of bitterness, and misguided opinions on the legal system that are formed to support such bitterness. That being said, the system depends on people being highly critical of it, for out of the criticism can emerge changes in the law and changes in procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/34 "2007-12-31T03:08:39Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Oh, come on, guys, it was a joke. Americans vs British sense of humour. sigh. [/QUOTE] Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/35 "2007-12-31T03:11:19Z")
[QUOTE=zamboniracer] In the US even the “scum” have Constitutional rights that need to be protected, lest those rights be taken away from the others as well. … While I am not in favor of sex offenders, even they have rights. [/QUOTE] Joking apart, the OP wasn’t questioning the rights of the accused to get a lawyer. It was asking the precise mechanism where \*this \*particular lawyer winds up defending \*that \*particular scumbag. How, exactly, does a specific case get assigned to a particular lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/36 "2007-12-31T03:14:08Z")
On the defense side? The accused seeks out private counsel, and an attorney in private practice can decide to take the case or not. IIRC, there are public defenders with areas of expertise, so it might not just be a case of “you’re next on the list, here’s your murder.” Any PDs about? ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/37 "2007-12-31T03:18:49Z")
As for California, in the county where I work, a lawyer must have 5 years of criminal trial experience and be certified by a local county panel before he or she may accept appointed cases involving a murder charge or any case where LWOP (Life without parole) or DP (Death Penalty) is possible. No lawyer in California is REQUIRED to do any work pro bono. Many Public Defenders are excellent trial attorneys and were in the top of their class at top tier schools. Unless you work for the public defender you are not required to accept any case. Many lawyers will accept clients for various reasons from the idealistic desire to support the constitutional principle or the mundane need for money or out of simple professionalism. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/38 "2007-12-31T03:19:25Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Joking apart, the OP wasn’t questioning the rights of the accused to get a lawyer. It was asking the precise mechanism where this particular lawyer winds up defending that particular scumbag. How, exactly, does a specific case get assigned to a particular lawyer. [/QUOTE] The accused can pick up the phone and call a lawyer (be it a private practioner or a public defender/duty counsel) to arrange for ongoing representation, or the accused can speak with the public defender/duty counsel in the cells or in court (usually prior to or during bail court) to arrange for ongoing representation. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/39 "2007-12-31T03:21:29Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Oh, come on, guys, it was a joke. Americans vs British sense of humour. sigh. [/QUOTE] [Moderating] Or perhaps just an excessively lame joke. **Peter** , you would be well advised to include a smiley with such posts if you don’t want to be misunderstood. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![bbs2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@bbs2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbs2k)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736/40 "2007-12-31T04:03:42Z")
I’m just here to ask, how did you get those cool “tm” letters to do that?! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-a-lawyer-end-up-defending-scum/431736.md?page=3)