# How does Canada move oil without the Keystone pipeline? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 26, 2022, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182 "2022-05-26T21:38:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/21 "2022-05-28T00:20:13Z")
Yes, and how much of _Canada’s_ oil production is United States Oil production?Canadas oil does not help the USA “energy independence” now does it? ---
**Author:** ![EastUmpqua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eastumpqua/32/6025_2.png) [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/22 "2022-05-28T01:27:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nor would that pipeline do anything at all for “American Energy Independence” since: > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, and how much of _Canada’s_ oil production is United States Oil production?Canadas oil does not help the USA “energy independence” now does it? If you’re talking about “American Energy Independence”, it seems like a higher-tech pipeline from Canada oil fields to US refining facilities would be efficient, and helps both the US and Canada. The US doesn’t have to import oil from counties that like us less than Canada does, and Canada can increase exports to other markets. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/23 "2022-05-28T02:10:28Z")
I thought the USA was a major producer of oil. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/24 "2022-05-28T02:31:36Z")
> [@EastUmpqua](#): > > If you’re talking about “American Energy Independence”, it seems like a higher-tech pipeline from Canada oil fields to US refining facilities would be efficient, and helps both the US and Canada. The US doesn’t have to import oil from counties that like us less than Canada does ? [The US already exports part of the oil it gets from Canada, to the tune of about 200-300K barrels per day.](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/canadian-oil-barrels-head-out-us-gulf-record-numbers-2022-02-11/) If we’re that desperate for more Canadian oil, we could start by just keeping more of the Canadian oil we already import into the US. But oil exporters aren’t going to do that if they can get a higher price for it overseas. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/25 "2022-05-28T02:36:53Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I thought the USA was a major producer of oil. It is, but [it still imports oil even when it’s a net exporter:](https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-products/imports-and-exports.php) > [@](#): > > In 2021, the United States exported about 8.63 million barrels per day (b/d) and imported about 8.47 million b/d of petroleum, making the United States an annual total petroleum net exporter […] Also in 2021, the United States produced about 18.66 million b/d of petroleum and consumed about 19.78 million b/d. Even though U.S. annual total petroleum exports were greater than total petroleum imports in 2020 and 2021, the United States still imported some crude oil and petroleum products from other countries to help to supply domestic demand for petroleum and to supply international markets. Kinda convoluted, but I think we can probably take it for granted that the point is to maximize profit, not that there’s anything wrong with that. ---
**Author:** ![EastUmpqua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eastumpqua/32/6025_2.png) [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/26 "2022-05-28T02:48:24Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Kinda convoluted, but I think we can probably take it for granted that the point is to maximize profit, not that there’s anything wrong with that. I agree it’s convoluted. The US imports more crude oil than it exports, but it refines it and exports gasoline, heating oil, jet fuel, diesel fuel. So technically it exports more petroleum than it imports. [US Energy Information Administration.](https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-products/imports-and-exports.php) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/27 "2022-05-28T11:08:28Z")
That, and countries, especially big countries, will often both import and export the exact same product. Imagine, hypothetically speaking, that there were two refineries in all of North America: One in Maine and one in Vancouver. Customers in Seattle would naturally get their oil products from Vancouver, and customers in Quebec would naturally get theirs from Maine, just because that’s what’s closest. So you’d have both Canada importing US oil, and the US importing Canadian oil. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/28 "2022-05-28T11:46:01Z")
That and the other things I need to point out in almost every thread on oil at the moment: 1. Shale and tar sands aren’t the best for refining into gasoline. Considering the various petroleum needs of different countries, it makes sense for the US to export some of its “unconventional” oil and import light crude. 2. Even if the US were “energy independent” the price of oil still wouldn’t be significantly lower than the global commodity price. Simply because the oil companies are profit-making ventures. Why would they take a financial hit by only selling domestically? (I guess you could privatize the oil companies, but then the economy as a whole is taking a hit from revenue that could be raised by exporting oil vs whatever the government is deciding to sell it for domestically.) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/29 "2022-05-28T12:08:10Z")
Great post and I agree with all of it, but Canadian Oil is far better as far as energy independence then oil that needs to be shipped over. While not independence it cuts down on shipping (which is very good for safety and pollution) and brings it local from perhaps the friendliest nation overall to the US. Oil from Venezuela, Columbia, Russia or The Middle East is much further from energy independence. Mexico isn’t bad either and they were the #2 location we imported oil from before the Ukraine invasion. Russia was actually 3rd was clearly a bad idea. What the US needs to concentrate on isn’t pipelines, but energy efficiency. We need to decrease the amount of oil we use. We need to reduce the amount of all fossil fuels we use. We’re making slow progress, last year over 10% of US power was generated by renewables. Some reports show as high as 20% with Wind, Hydro, Solar, Biomass & Geothermal. Then 19% is nuclear. Cool is done to 22% and Petro is down to .5%. But natural gas has climbed to 38%. > **[Electricity in the U.S. - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)](https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us.php)** > > The major fuel/energy sources and their contribution to annual U.S. electricity generation. Getting cars more efficient and replacing with electrics is going to help a lot towards cutting down oil imports and help climate change. Ship and Jets are another area that needs to be addressed. Trains are already just about the most efficient transport. But America is a hard sell for more trains. The steel industry is an interesting area, it is a surprisingly high user of fossil fuels and the industry is trying to address this and become at least carbon neutral. Considering this is an industry trying to do this and not a government regulation, it is quite refreshing. But while a significant impact on climate change world-wide our 10 steel mills will only make a small dent in US oil use. 66% of US oil use is transportation, so this is indeed the area the US needs to address most heavily. Cars, Trucks, Jets and Ships. 2/3rds of the gas usage is for cars or 44% of the total oil use. Fuel Oil is another large segment sitting around 21%. Heat Pumps phasing in over the next 20 years should greatly help here. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/30 "2022-05-28T12:09:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Didn’t answer the actual question I asked you. This is the first item that comes up when I search - so one train derailment in 2020, not far from where it happened the year before… 32 cars. > **[Latest CP derailment spilled 5 times as much oil as Husky pipeline leak in...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/cp-train-saskatchewan-oil-1.5459853)** > > The Saskatchewan government says an estimated 1.2 million litres of oil leaked from a Canadian Pacific train that derailed near the hamlet of Guernsey last week. > The Saskatchewan government says an estimated 1.2 million litres of oil leaked from a Canadian Pacific Railway train that derailed near the hamlet of Guernsey last week. > That’s less than the estimated 1.5 million litres that is believed to have leaked in [a separate train derailment, also near Guernsey](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/cp-train-crash-oil-guernsey-saskatoon-1.5454341), last December. > But it’s still five times the amount of oil spilled during the [2016 Husky Energy pipeline disaster](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/husky-energy-pipeline-oil-spill-court-hearing-1.5171779) near Maidstone, Sask. > … > Thursday’s train crash happened shortly after 6:15 a.m. CST. Thirty-two cars jumped the tracks west of Guernsey, a small hamlet located 116 kilometres east of Saskatoon. > ConocoPhillips said the train was carrying a type of diluted bitumen called Surmont Heavy DilBit (SHD). > At least 12 of the train cars caught fire, according to the Saskatchewan Public Safety Agency. Drone footage showed at least two large pools of spilled oil staining the ground next to the railway. Or this: > **[Canadian oil by rail surges 87% in November 2020 | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/canadian-oil-cude-rail-1.5887059)** > > Canadian exports of crude oil by rail jumped 87 per cent in November as oil production rose in Western Canada amid limited pipeline capacity for heavy crude. This is USA, but… mind you, it appears to be propaganda on behalf of someone who wants pipelines. > **[How do pipelines like Line 3 compare to other ways of transporting oil in...](https://www.minnesotansforline3.com/pipelinesafety/)** > > How do pipelines like Line 3 compare to other ways of transporting oil in terms of safety and efficiency? > When it comes to the transportation of oil, pipelines have been found to be much safer transportation than trucks or rail, and with reduced... > Transportation by road was found to have the highest incident rate (at 19.95 per billion-ton miles per year), followed by rail at 2.08, natural gas pipelines at 0.89, and hazardous liquid pipelines at 0.58. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/31 "2022-05-28T12:16:24Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Great post and I agree with all of it, but Canadian Oil is far better as far as energy independence that oil that needs to be shipped over. While not independence it cuts down on shipping (which is very good for safety and pollution) and brings it local from perhaps the friendliest nation overall to the US. I would imagine, too, a couple of dozen carloads of crude, or a pipeline that burst, is easier to clean up than an entire tanker load spread along miles and miles of beach, or steadily oozing out from the bottom of the sea over weeks. (Or, compare to one Gulf of Mexico incident. How often do those happen?) Not to minimize the danger to the environment all over, but until everyone (including trucking companies) are driving Teslas, and their electricity comes from wind and sun, there will be oil needed - and oil is transported by humans, with the implied possible results. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/32 "2022-05-28T13:31:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, you don’t need to move it to Texas, since the purpose was for export. If you look at a map, you will see that Alberta is land-locked. To export its oil, it needs to get to a coast. Hint: Texas has a coast. > [@](#): > > And Canada has miles and miles of oil pipelines. **840,000 kilometres** to be precise. There’s pipeline, and there’s pipeline. That total of 840,000 km is all pipe anywhere in the system, and includes all the gathering and local transmission pipelines, which are under provincial jurisdiction as local works. A clearer understanding of the purpose of Keystone is to look at the amount of pipeline which is under federal regulation - i.e. - crosses a provincial boundary to get product to refineries in other provinces, or for export. That amount is around 73,000 km of pipeline, or less than 10% of all pipeline in Canada. > **[Pipelines Across Canada](https://natural-resources.canada.ca/our-natural-resources/energy-sources-distribution/fossil-fuels/pipelines/pipelines-across-canada/18856)** > > There are more than 840,000 kilometres (km) of transmission, gathering and distribution pipelines in Canada — including 117,000 km of large-diameter transmission lines — with most provi That federally regulated pipeline is largely concentrated in the big 4 pipelines: - Trans Mountain (running from Alberta to BC - ie to a coast) - Enbridge - the largest pipeline, which runs from Alberta to eastern Canada and eastern US; - Keystone - which runs from Alberta to the US, branching to Illinois, where it feeds into the US system, and to Texas (ie a coast); - Express - which runs from Alberta to refineries in Wyoming. So of the four biggest cross-border pipes, only two reach a coast. The other two feed to refineries. That limits the ability of Canada to export its oil to other countries, which was one of the key reasons for Canadian support for the pipeline. Another reason for shipping to Texas on Keystone is that Texas has the biggest set of refineries in North America. That meant that the Alberta product could be refined there, which would be a clear economic benefit to the US, and could then either be exported to other countries, or enter the US distribution system for refined products. > [@](#): > > There is already a Keystone pipeline running from Alberta to Houston. The New Keystone pipeline was just a second one. > [@](#): > > So, no, they don’t need to move the oil by rail due to one poorly planned pipeline being canceled. Pipelines are not magical transportation facilities with unlimited capacity. There is a clear limit to the amount any pipeline can move. The four big pipelines are running at pretty much full capacity. Assuming you still want to ship petroleum products (which is an issue), the only solutions are to build more pipelines, or ship by other transport, such as trucks or rail. Both of those of less economical than pipelines, and therefore adds to the cost of the product at market. One of the goals of Keystone 2 was to get a better price for western Canadian oil on the international markets, rather than be limited to the US market. There are also the environmental issues: pipelines need energy to operate, just like trucks and trains, but generally have a smaller carbon footprint. > [@](#): > > Nor would that pipeline do anything at all for “American Energy Independence” since: > > 1. It is Canadian oil, not USA oil > 2. It was mostly for export True, it would be Canadian oil, not US. However, how many times have we seen on these boards statements to the effect that the US has to reduce its dependence on the Middle East for oil, because of the political knock-on effect of wanting to maintain stable governments in Saudi Arabia, Iraq and other oil producing countries? Which country has a political system that mostly aligns with US values, and does not require military support/invasion to be propped up? And has a strong rule of law, so that things like contracts for oil purchases can be enforced and respected? If things go to pot internationally, which is a better, more secure, source for the US: oil from the same continent, delivered to US refineries, or oil that has to come from a country on the other side of the globe, over the oceans? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/33 "2022-05-28T13:39:48Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > One of the facts disbelieved by MAGA is that the Keystone pipeline was to move Canadian oil to Texas refineries and the fuel sent mostly overseas. Can you elaborate? Trump issued the permit for Keystone. What was the MAGA take on it that you’re referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/34 "2022-05-28T14:44:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, maybe. Nobody knows how much pipelines leak. There are leak detectors, of course, but the threshold at which they detect a leak is quite high: Smaller leaks would go unnoticed. There is no one system of leak detection. Pipeline operators use a variety of factors, ranging from the basic one of physical observation as part of maintenance, to detectors along the pipeline, to sophisticated computer modelling and sensing. The more systems which are used, the better the chance of detection. There’s an interesting set of abstracts on the issue of leak detection here: [https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/pipeline-leak-detection](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/pipeline-leak-detection) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/35 "2022-05-28T16:03:48Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Can you elaborate? Trump issued the permit for Keystone. What was the MAGA take on it that you’re referring to? I don’t know what the MAGA take was. I was curious how the oil was transported without the pipeline. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/36 "2022-05-28T19:24:47Z")
Very informative post there @Northern_Piper. Thank you. Pipelines to me are fascinating in that they are undeniably in the transportation business, and are subject to many transportation-specific laws / regulations, or transportation-like laws / regs, yet they don’t move. Kind of a mind-f\*\*\* in a way. As a kid I once read a very corny science fiction story which included as sort of the foundational tech conceit of the story the idea of overgrown moving sidewalks that were stationary at the ends, but if you walked in a couple paces they were moving slowly, and with no further walking you were quickly drawn forwards into the main bulk of the span where you’d be doing 60 or 100mph. With an equally gradual slowdown at the next town 50 or however many miles away. All while none of this “sidewalk” is moving; it’s just you who are moving. Somehow pipelines remind me of this story. Poetically, not practically. I certainly understand how pipes & pumps & gravity flow work here in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/37 "2022-05-28T19:58:40Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Great post and I agree with all of it, but Canadian Oil is far better as far as energy independence then oil that needs to be shipped over. While not independence it cuts down on shipping (which is very good for safety and pollution) and brings it local from perhaps the friendliest nation overall to the US. I concur. Better to get oil from Canada, than say Russia. Excellent post > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > True, it would be Canadian oil, not US. However, how many times have we seen on these boards statements to the effect that the US has to reduce its dependence on the Middle East for oil, because of the political knock-on effect of wanting to maintain stable governments in Saudi Arabia, Iraq and other oil producing countries? Yes, way better I agree. ---
**Author:** ![abcdefghij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@abcdefghij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abcdefghij)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/38 "2022-05-28T21:00:41Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Pipelines to me are fascinating in that they are undeniably in the transportation business, and are subject to many transportation-specific laws / regulations, or transportation-like laws / regs, yet they don’t move. Kind of a mind-f\*\*\* in a way. `LSL-Heavy, land and hold short for 700 km of pipe` > [@LSLGuy](#): > > As a kid I once read a very corny science fiction story which included as sort of the foundational tech conceit of the story the idea of overgrown moving sidewalks that were stationary at the ends, but if you walked in a couple paces they were moving slowly, and with no further walking you were quickly drawn forwards into the main bulk of the span where you’d be doing 60 or 100mph. With an equally gradual slowdown at the next town 50 or however many miles away. All while none of this “sidewalk” is moving; it’s just you who are moving. Sounds like Heinlein’s [_The Roads Must Roll_](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Roads_Must_Roll). ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/39 "2022-05-28T21:42:03Z")
> [@abcdefghij](#): > > Sounds like Heinlein’s [_The Roads Must Roll_](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Roads_Must_Roll). Thank you! Upon reading your cite that’s half the story I was thinking of. I now think I’d glued together two unrelated SF stories in my highly fallible 50-ish year ago memory. One story that included non-moving sidewalks that nonetheless moved their passengers as a minor techno-MacGuffin, and this story which uses giant but otherwise conventional conveyor belts as the main organizing technology of the society. I’d glued the MacGuffin of one into the plot of the other. Oops. Good catch. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182/40 "2022-05-28T23:23:06Z")
IMO, let’s not push this Energy Independence deal too far. This is why Germany has resorted to using coal fired power plants, this was/is the reason that China makes most of its chemicals from Coal (gasification ) etc etc There is a trade off between clean energy and energy independence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-canada-move-oil-without-the-keystone-pipeline/965182.md?page=3)