What, just exactly, are you getting at with the word “better?” A Navy SEAL is better at Navy SEAL stuff than is your average cashier at McDonalds. That doesn’t make the Navy SEAL a better person. It makes him a better amphibious commando.
It’s because they kill people, and call it a job.
See, the thing is, I’ve heard stories told by current and ex-servicemen. They tell me they didn’t believe in the Iraq war. They tell me that they felt it was unjust. They thought it was bad for their country to get involved in it. But, nevertheless, they enlisted, in order to get money to go to college. Human beings die from the actions of these people. Many of them are innocent civilians, caught in the crossfire. Some of them are children. But, hey, killing those people is a ticket to college, which is more important than human life, right?
It’s no puzzle why so many have a negative attitude to this type of serviceman. Actually, I find it baffling why some people think they are worth any respect at all.
Someone might be a hero if they join up to fight for something they actually believe in. Someone who enlisted to fight Hitler is worthy of my respect, for example. But such people appear to be in a minority among the current US military.
I hear what you’re saying and I simply can’t agree with your logic in that firefighter example. You see the firefighter as just doing his “profession”. I mean the act that was carried out by this “random passerby” unplanned and by chance is exactly what this firefighter is working for, planning on and training for to accomplish and I somehow don’t think that even though he trains he’s going to walk into a 5 story building with like a hundred pounds or more of gear risking his life and see it as just another fine and dandy day at work. The same t hing that makes the random passerby run into the burning building is the same thing that makes the firefighter run into the burning building it’s that extra heroism that makes the firefighter optimize himself and maximize his potential and plan on doing that sometime in the future that the random passerby lacks.
I do.
You’ve heard stories? I’ve been there guy and here’s my story I never killed anyone and I never planned on killing anyone that didn’t deserve it, those people who want to kill people want to kill people dude and not for college, it’s just because they got an itch to kill. They got people like that in the civilian world so it’s kind of ignorant to stereotype soldiers because I’ve met plenty and they don’t quite meet that criteria. And another thing someone might be a hero if they join up to fight for something they actually believe in right… Well maybe you forgot but I remember very well that the day we went to war I was happy because I believed we were going to get the son of a bitches that were responsible for 9/11 and I would bet money that A BIG CHUNK of America was and if you didn’t feel that they u didn’t give a shit about anything because 9/11 should have touched every American. I’ll admit that I later realized that Iraq was a mistake and we had been tricked by some dipshit president but by that time I was a soldier and as a soldier you take an oath and pledge to serve your country for whatever it needs and that’s exactly what I did. Such people appear to be a minority to you and to me they appear t he majority. I’d say I may have a clearer view since I actually went.
but are the “in it for the money” types really a large enough subset to base conclusions upon?
i know people enlisted. i know a few lifers. they are strictly ideologically involved. i dont know any who weigh the risk and find the monetary rewards are enticing enough. i am sure some people are in it for the benefits–but i’m not sure it’s a large enough proportion to think a lot of these people are equivocating pointless death because they want $$.
now, private contractors on the other hand–now there’s an interesting conversation. i got a little obsessed w mercs. they are never ideologically involved…
and the fact private contractors are carrying such a large portion of the war-load these days changes the complexion of the debate, really.
I didn’t enter the army after entering the delay-entry program because I was only in it for the college money and a way out of an abusive house, but I didn’t go through with it because I had a pang of conscience and knew that killing people for oil and the military industrial complex was wrong.
I never went to college, I think about it sometimes and feel regret but what if I had went there and shot an innocent Iraqi? They are all by definition innocent. We invaded their country for no reason.
That’s a matter of opinion.
The way I see it, the military is a big team, all working togewther, and EVERY member of the team is responsible. If one kills, all are killers.
A SEAL on the front lines engaging the enemy and shooting them is a killer, no question. But a supply clerk, who processes the paperwork to buy guns and ammo from the defence contractors, and sees to it that the SEALs are issued with their guns, she’s a killer too. She has made it possible for the killers to operate, she therefore is no less morally responsible than they are.
What makes you think I’m American? There are people on the Dope from all around the world. I’d bet Americans are in the minority.
But basically you were willing to fight a war that you didn’t actually agree with.
I don’t think your view is clear at all. Based upon what you’ve told me, you are such a person yourself, even if you can’t see it.
See, this is why I’d have joined the Coast Guard. Less politics, I’d imagine. I don’t like the military. I wish it didn’t exist. But it does. People go, for whatever reason, and pay a terrible price for it. I wouldn’t go (I’d PROBABLY have joined up for WW2 knowing what we do now about Hitler), and I’d likely be a terrible soldier. But I have a lot of compassion for those poor buggers that do and pay that price.
Just to clarify, citing college money was just an example. There are many other reasons. Some do it because the life style appeals to them. Some do it because it’s what their parents want. And some do it because they were duped by a dipshit president. Same difference.
This isn’t even remotely limited to military personnel. 5 year olds with leukemia are heroes, people skiing across Greenland alone are heroes, wealthy donors saving obscure endangered animals.
A selfless act that results in a great chance of personal physical harm to me makes a hero, and those people achieve the few instances of altruism our species is capable of.
so…not Buzz Aldrin?
Of course Buzz Aldrin. Participating in the Space Program was very risky. Several people died before the first successful Moon landing. It certainly counts as a great risk for any participant.
so YES Buzz Aldrin; NO Pat Tillman.
Plus he punched that guy.
Made ME cheer.
Hey, I’m a private contractor, writing from Afghanistan as we speak! But I’m not an armed one, so maybe not the kind you’re thinking of? If you’re talking about any of the many private contractors over here, what makes you think we’re any more or less ideologically driven than the soldiers?
And speaking of the soldiers, I think you’re mistaken. I talk to soldiers every day and just about any time I get into more than a passing conversation with them I ask why they joined the military. Pay and benefits are virtually always the number one answer. Second most common is they were bored and wanted to get out of their hometown. Ideological reasons are way down there on the list, if they’re mentioned at all, which they’re usually not. Only once did someone mention ideological reasons first, and that guy answered so quickly and officiously (“To serve my country, SIR!” - I almost heard his heels click) that I think he was being sarcastic.
Don’t get me wrong - I don’t get the impression that most joined up for cynical reasons. It’s hard to get their thoughts on the war (apparently it’s taboo for them to speak openly about it), but from the private conversations I’ve had most of them have no problem with it in principle, they just disagree with how it’s waged, or the point at which it outlived its usefulness. Though frankly, many of them seem never to have considered the right or wrong of it in the first place.
As for the OP, joining the military does not in and of itself make you a hero, it just gives you more potential opportunities to act heroically, given the nature of the job. The term is vastly, vastly overused. Also, as others have pointed out, what Army you’re joining and why you’re joining it come into play when deciding who is heroic or not.
Why would it surprise you?
I’m a non-American (I went there once on business in 1998) who feels that there have been very few just wars (if any) in the past half century. Due to that I cannot feel that a member of the armed services is “protecting me” and therefore should be venerated. On the contrary, I feel their actions make me less safe by destabilising the world. I also don’t subscribe to the idea that it is the politicians at fault and not the members of the armed services; those people chose that job, it wasn’t forced upon them (except for the draft, something that hasn’t happened in the US for a long time).
And like many non-Americans I find the almost fetishisation of the military (politicians having to surround themselves continually with uniformed folk, no one being able to go five seconds without saying “thank you for your service” just because they are a “veteran”, hell even “liberal” media like the Daily Show goes directly into fawning mode as soon as someone from the military is on …) in the United States to be very, very weird.
As long as it is sugar coated. 
And one more thing… A few months ago I attended training on critical thinking skills. Thinking critically is normally the opposite of “brainwashing.” So either the Army is hiring the world’s least competent brainwashers or some people on this board are suffering misconceptions.
At risk of Godwinizing the thread, I will simply note that the German Army historically emphasized critical thinking as well.