# How does Christian killing of witches stack up against Islamic honor killings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676 "2009-08-25T19:58:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/21 "2009-08-26T00:05:53Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > [Honor killing - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing) > > Now for the purposes of this thread I am just trying to talk about the equivalency of this. If there is another form of Christian violence that is similar to honor killing you are welcome to make the argument. Well, first, the argument that homour killing is specifically religious needs to be justified. > [@](#): > > Specifically excluded from this debate are killings in political wars that are tangentially religious. Also excluded are statistics from before 2000. We are only looking for contemporary examples. 2000? That’s absurd. Recent, I can understand, 2000 is tripe. 1960 perhaps, or within the past 20 years. > [@](#): > > So are Christian witch killings as prevalent? Do they account for 5000 deaths a year? Or is this a false equivalency? There is no way to establish equivalency one way or another. Honour killings do not have proper data nor definition. I also seriously doubt that Christian things like killing witches in Africa has proper data. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/22 "2009-08-26T00:11:03Z")
[QUOTE=mswas;11484423 **Odesio** Interesting stuff but beyond the scope of this discussion I think. If it happened before 2000 then it’s not applicable.[/QUOTE] No kidding, I really should have read the OP more closely. :smack: I see witch killing and I automatically think of early modern Europe and forget that it still happens in some places. :smack: My bad. Apologies for filling the thread with information that’s not pertinent. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/23 "2009-08-26T00:20:15Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > If there is another form of Christian violence that is similar to honor killing you are welcome to make the argument. Yes, they’re called “honor killings.” Fully legal in Brazil as late as [1991](http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/29/us/honor-killing-of-wives-is-outlawed-in-brazil.html). I’ll note that law was ignored by a Brazilian state court and a man acquitted based on an honor defense just a couple of years later in 1993, so I believe the legal status there is still slightly muddled (as it is in several other Latin American countries ). While far more prevalent in the ME/NA these days, this is a cultural issue much more than a religious one. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/24 "2009-08-26T01:07:09Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Yes, they’re called “honor killings.” Fully legal in Brazil as late as [1991](http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/29/us/honor-killing-of-wives-is-outlawed-in-brazil.html). I’ll note that law was ignored by a Brazilian state court and a man acquitted based on an honor defense just a couple of years later in 1993, so I believe the legal status there is still slightly muddled (as it is in several other Latin American countries ). > > While far more prevalent in the ME/NA these days, this is a cultural issue much more than a religious one. Indeed, since the cite you provide does nothing whatsoever to indicate that there was any religious component whatsoever in those Brazilian cases, making them not credibly called “Christian violence.” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/25 "2009-08-26T01:14:44Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Indeed, since the cite you provide does nothing whatsoever to indicate that there was any religious component whatsoever in those Brazilian cases, making them not credibly called “Christian violence.” Good point. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > Yes, they’re called “honor killings.” Fully legal in Brazil as late as [1991](http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/29/us/honor-killing-of-wives-is-outlawed-in-brazil.html). I’ll note that law was ignored by a Brazilian state court and a man acquitted based on an honor defense just a couple of years later in 1993, so I believe the legal status there is still slightly muddled (as it is in several other Latin American countries ). > > While far more prevalent in the ME/NA these days, this is a cultural issue much more than a religious one. But what separates Islam is how explicitly it defines the rights of a husband to perform an honor killing. Judaism has ancient honor killings such a Phinehas, but that’s not so much because the lady is a tramp but because she’s a tramp with the wrong phenotype. As far as I am aware the bible is not explicit about honor killings. > [@wmfellows](#): > > Well, first, the argument that homour killing is specifically religious needs to be justified. Ok, well it’s explicated in the Quran. **Sage Rat** made a good point that it is carried out by multiple family members. > [@](#): > > 2000? > > That’s absurd. Recent, I can understand, 2000 is tripe. 1960 perhaps, or within the past 20 years. Yes I said that specifically because there have been many cultural changes. As Tamerlane pointed out the 1991 Brazillian law, or as the other thread we have about atheists being prevented from adoption in the early 70s. Going back 50 years is too far, that’s two generations back. I am looking for contemporary. > [@](#): > > There is no way to establish equivalency one way or another. > > Honour killings do not have proper data nor definition. I also seriously doubt that Christian things like killing witches in Africa has proper data. I’m not sure I buy that. If there is data on Muslim backwaters why not on other backwaters? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/26 "2009-08-26T01:59:48Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > The religiously motivated murder ( and abuse ) of homosexuals seems quite similar. Although it’s not restricted to Christian believers. But how prevalent is it? [/QUOTE] Certainly far more common in America than Islamic honor killing. In other places, I understand they are being systematically persecuted and killed in Iraq now that Saddam is gone, and they execute gays in Iran. You can expect more religiously motivated killing in Islamic nations because Islam is more powerful there than Christianity is in most modern Christian nations; the Christians in present day America can’t get away with openly using death squads to kill gays regardless of how much they want to. That keeps the numbers down. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/27 "2009-08-26T02:30:06Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Indeed, since the cite you provide does nothing whatsoever to indicate that there was any religious component whatsoever in those Brazilian cases, making them not credibly called “Christian violence.” True, I was intending to point out more that it happens in Christian societies, as well as Muslim ones. Since I don’t really consider honor killings primarily religious in any context, that fits well enough with my own views :). > [@mswas](#): > > But what separates Islam is how explicitly it defines the rights of a husband to perform an honor killing. Eh? Explicitly? Are you talking about punishments mandated for adultery? As is also found in the Old Testament? Regardless of the repressive patriarchal traditions common to the Abrahamic religions, Islam as a highly legalistic faith would never mandate _extrajudicial_ killings. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/28 "2009-08-26T03:24:53Z")
No evidence, but when I was young the recommendation, if one caught ones [del]spouse[/del] wife and her BF _in flagrante delicto_ and, because of the trauma of the situation one killed them both, one (he) should go for a jury trial. Thus the saying, “No jury in Texas/Arkansas/ Louisiana/etc would convict him.” Juries up north were not assumed to be so accommodating, but I hear many were. That would be a form of honor killing, but I’m too lazy to find examples. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/29 "2009-08-26T03:41:14Z")
I think honor killings and witch executions are similar in that they both involve ordinary, often female, loved ones or neighbors who simply dabbled–or were suspected-- in something completely harmless but which is so abhorred by a superstitious or hyper-sensitive culture that they would single them out for capital punishment. It’s not quite the same as killing homosexuals, because they’re still an “other” in a way. They’re different in that, whereas on the one hand witchcraft is completely fictional, if you’re convinced it’s real then it’s rational crack down hard on it. Sex is real, but it’s just sex (but I think honor killings of adulterous spouses belong in a somewhat different category than those of flirting daughters). As for the religious aspects, witch hunting is more explicity christian (even though I think there are deeper cultural antecedents in the West as elsewhere), while honor killing, as **wmfellows** pointed out, is less Islamic and more a product of Middle Eastern culture. Still, in most of these places Islam asserts such a powerful grip on daily life and moral values, it’s rather disingenuous for it to pretend these honor killings are taking place behind its back. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/30 "2009-08-26T03:46:45Z")
Little simulpost action on the adultery angle. It should be reiterated that Middle Eastern honor killings we’re discussing are often of unmarried female relatives for behavior that stopped well short of sexual intercourse. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/31 "2009-08-26T04:08:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m curious if there’s something special about honor killings that make them different from run-of-the-mill domestic violence. If Omar thinks his wife is a slut and kills her, is it notably different than if Elmer thinks his wife is a slut and kills her? Omar is more likely to take the time to consider that killing his slut wife is the proper thing for him to do, leaving him without any sense of guilt while Elmer is more likely to kill his slut wife in rage or at least, (unless he is a psychopath) leaving him with a sense of guilt. Honour killings are simply executions. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/32 "2009-08-26T05:00:19Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > [QUOTE=Miller] > I’m curious if there’s something special about honor killings that make them different from run-of-the-mill domestic violence. If Omar thinks his wife is a slut and kills her, is it notably different than if Elmer thinks his wife is a slut and kills her? Omar is more likely to take the time to consider that killing his slut wife is the proper thing for him to do, leaving him without any sense of guilt while Elmer is more likely to kill his slut wife in rage or at least, (unless he is a psychopath) leaving him with a sense of guilt. [/QUOTE] I also expect that Omar is more likely to kill her even if he isn’t personally jealous to that extent. He has the added motivation of killing for “Honor” or “God” even if he isn’t angry enough to kill over his wife’s “sluttishness”. And the fact that such behavior is so widely approved makes it far more likely that he’ll do so, since he can get away with it. Or for that matter that someone else will even against Omar’s opposition. If Elmer refrains from beating or killing his wife, how likely is it that Uncle Bob will come over and do it instead? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/33 "2009-08-26T07:06:58Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Good Ok, well it’s explicated in the Quran. No, it is not. Nothing in the Qur’an “explicates” honor killings. There are sections in the Qur’an that have been used to provide a basis for killing apostates, (and those sections are not universally recognized as providing such justification), but even the killing of apostates must be processed through law. Honor killings occur in many cultures, (Northern Ireland, the former Yugoslavia, Sicily, South America, several Middle Eastern countries, India, (Hindu as well as Muslim regions), and in a few places in the Far East), and tend to occur where clan associations are the strongest social ties. (Interestingly, there is not a lot of information on honor killings in Sub-Sahara Africa, but whether that is due to a lack of such events or a lack of reporting is not clear.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/34 "2009-08-26T07:18:55Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > With honor killings, the murderers are at least reducing the size of their own gene pool. > Almost any female could be accused witchcraft. Actually, the notion that women were the targets of witchcraft accusations has to be modified by region. Women were the most frequent targets in the British Isles and probably suffered the most, over all, but in other locations the targets were college students, wealthier merchants, or any number of other possible social groups, including clergy. Witchcraft was also far less of a “religious” crime than a social one. Religion was the ostensible excuse used by accusers, but it was far more likely that the victims would be chosen for political or economic reasons, (or for being perceived as threats against the social order), than they would be chosen because someone actually perceived a religious duty to prosecute them. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/35 "2009-08-26T10:50:31Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Well, the execution of witches in Europe from about 1450 through 1750 was sanctioned by law. So far as I know honor killings are extralegal and have little or nothing to do with the judicial system. There’s a big difference right there I think. What law? Honor killings are justified, by the perpetrators, with the Sharia, the cultural mores loosely based on Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/36 "2009-08-26T16:53:46Z")
No, the cultural mores preceded Islam. The Old Testament espouses the exact same mores, by the way. It advocates all kinds of honor killings. There is a Christian movement in the US analogous to Sharia which wants to return to the days of stoning. I think the “honor killing” think is kind of a bogus way to compare religions anyway. Islam has honor killings, Christianity has anti-abortion terrorists, gay bashers, polygamous sex farms and crusading zealots like the Blackwater thugs who think that Jesus wants them to kill as many Muslims as possible. No religion is morally superior to any other religion. They’re all just bigs groups of humans, and humans are all the same. Most of them are fairly peaceful and decent, some of them are assholes, a few of them are _violent_ assholes. The more wealth and security a group has, the more peaceful it will be. The more economic stress, poverty or oppression it has, the more violent the group will become. Their religion has nothing to do with it. If Christians were penned up in poverty behind barbed wire fences, then Christians would be strapping bombs to teenaged girls. It’s not a religious thing, it’s a human thing. The “honor killings” seem to me to be the same kind of run-of-the-mill domestic crimes of passion, jealousy and mental illness that occur every day in Jewish/Christian/atheist households. I think that the perpetrators just try to call them “honor killings” to put a fig leaf over how venal and ordinary the motivations really are. And of course, the media loves to villify Islam, so it sensationalizes any kind of perceived religious motivation to these crimes as much as possible. Conversely, the media takes great care not to suggest any religious motives behind acts of anti-abortion or anti-gay terrorism, or for acts of extreme mental illness, such as women drowning their children in bathtubs to protect them from Satan. If a Muslim woman did that, it would be shouted from every television network and radio station as proof that Islam is evil. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/37 "2009-08-26T17:29:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The more wealth and security a group has, the more peaceful it will be. The more economic stress, poverty or oppression it has, the more violent the group will become. Their religion has nothing to do with it. If Christians were penned up in poverty behind barbed wire fences, then Christians would be strapping bombs to teenaged girls. It’s not a religious thing, it’s a human thing. So that’s why Saudi Arabia sponsors terrorism, and that’s why most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis? Because Saudi Arabia is poor. That’s the ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/38 "2009-08-26T17:47:37Z")
They do it for the same reason that the US sponsors Israeli apartheid and terrorism. They’re picking sides based on infantile tribalism. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/39 "2009-08-26T17:48:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m curious if there’s something special about honor killings that make them different from run-of-the-mill domestic violence. Or run-of-the-mill child abuse. The National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System says that 1,760 children died in the US from child abuse or neglect in 2007. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676/40 "2009-08-26T17:48:49Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No, it is not. > > Nothing in the Qur’an “explicates” honor killings. > > There are sections in the Qur’an that have been used to provide a basis for killing apostates, (and those sections are not universally recognized as providing such justification), but even the killing of apostates must be processed through law. > > Honor killings occur in many cultures, (Northern Ireland, the former Yugoslavia, Sicily, South America, several Middle Eastern countries, India, (Hindu as well as Muslim regions), and in a few places in the Far East), and tend to occur where clan associations are the strongest social ties. (Interestingly, there is not a lot of information on honor killings in Sub-Sahara Africa, but whether that is due to a lack of such events or a lack of reporting is not clear.) Could you or someone else post appropriate Surah’s? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-christian-killing-of-witches-stack-up-against-islamic-honor-killings/507676.md?page=3)