# How does defecting to another country work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 22, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070 "2010-06-22T00:50:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/21 "2011-08-03T00:19:27Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > You can’t “defect” if you’re perfectly free to leave. The U.S. doesn’t keep its citizens confined within its territory against their will. That’s not the whole story. The U.K. is an open society much like the U.S., but [Kim Philby](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Philby) defected from the U.K. to the Soviet Union, in 1963, having been a Soviet spy in the U.K. If they had been able, the British would have confined Philby to a British prison. A similar agent for a foreign government might want to defect from the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/22 "2011-08-03T00:27:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The American housewife former Soviet seaman is a bit iffy and would like to know more. > > There was a gentlemans agreement between the sides that they would not kill; this was honoured with a few notable exceptions. well, this guy might be one of those exceptions [Sergei Kourdakov - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Kourdakov) . ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/23 "2011-08-03T00:34:20Z")
[http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/in-denial-by-john-earl-haynes-and-harvey-klehr/](http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/in-denial-by-john-earl-haynes-and-harvey-klehr/) > [@](#): > > American Communist-party members kept tabs on Russian émigrés and the Orthodox Church, infiltrated Jewish organizations, kidnapped defectors, and helped arrange the assassination of Leon Trotsky in Mexico. Other than that, I can’t find any discussion. There’s also the rumour that Theremin returned voluntarily, and then ended up in Siberia for 10 years. Stalin and gentleman’s agreement are not compatible terms. I’m sure some others in the Russian echelons understood the value of gentlemen’s agreements, but if Stalin or his pet thugs in the KGB said “do it”, it got done. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/24 "2011-08-03T02:49:04Z")
In 1959 Lee Harvey Oswald defected (sort of) to the USSR. [Lee Harvey Oswald - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald#Defection_to_the_Soviet_Union) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/25 "2011-08-03T02:50:15Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > That’s not the whole story. The U.K. is an open society much like the U.S., but [Kim Philby](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Philby) defected from the U.K. to the Soviet Union, in 1963, having been a Soviet spy in the U.K. If they had been able, the British would have confined Philby to a British prison. A similar agent for a foreign government might want to defect from the U.S. Ah, I see. I’d call that “fleeing to escape prosecution” more than “defecting,” but you make a fair point. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4da419/32.png) [@Mike\_Mac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mac)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/26 "2011-08-03T04:57:22Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > You can’t “defect” if you’re perfectly free to leave. The U.S. doesn’t keep its citizens confined within its territory against their will. There’s even a procedure for giving up your U.S. citizenship, if you’re crazy, er, determined enough to want to do so. The Master speaks: [How do I go about renouncing my U.S. citizenship? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/841/how-do-i-go-about-renouncing-my-u-s-citizenship) I’m not necessarily saying people will want to renounce, but what can be crazy one day might be considered quite sane and rational the next. Timing can be the difference between life and death. Consider a few million people in Wiemar Germany who could have left in 1931, but could not in 1939. Inside of a decade a highly civilized nation became a despotic murderous regime. Same story in Czarist Russia, Cuba and PRC, etc. Our own downward trajectory probably most resembles Wiemar Germany. If you compare today with 100 years ago, say 1911, in terms of the Constitution, we’ve gone from an ocean of rights with little islands of government power, to an ocean of government power with little islands of rights. Look at our money supply and the dollar, and our debt. So maybe we’re living in the 1934 Wiemar Republic now, and by the time most people want to get out, it will be too late. And that empty-your-pockets as you exit tax law was just passed a few years ago…if they can do that, what’s next? By 1939, the Third Reich was doing whatever it wanted. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/27 "2011-08-03T05:24:32Z")
Read this wrong the first time. I thought you said… “How does defecating in another country work?” I was going to reassure you that it works just like it did at your own home. 😃 One tiny letter makes a lot of difference. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/28 "2011-08-03T07:24:40Z")
> [@Mike\_Mac](#): > > Are the rules different on defection out of the USA? > > If you want to renounce your citizenship and leave the country, you cannot take your assets with you intact. You are subject to mark to market rules, as if you sold everything, so they essentially hold you up and shake you down. One of the justifications, for example, of taxing citizens on worldwide income was the benefit of being a US citizen, IE freedom. Now with diminishing freedoms in the USA, people are starting to edge toward the door. People are leaving, and I hear illegal immigration is even down! > > So, the question is, is it illegal to defect from the USA? So that is why you sell everything, smuggle whatever out of the country and _then_ renounce the citizenship. Come on, it isn’t like we have the most impenetrable borders … ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/29 "2011-08-03T08:39:40Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Could one of the guards shoot a defector in the head to prevent his escape/defection? Tragically, yes they can. Perhaps the most famous example of this, as the attempt and aftermath happened in front of a lot of people, is that of [Peter Fechter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fechter). Defection is an inherently political act, and as a result how it is done is entirely political. If you go to the Russian embassy tomorrow and announce your intention to defect, the US will be notified, and you will in all likelihood be allowed to leave, though perhaps not without incident. If a Russian did the same in Moscow at the US embassy, that may well turn into an international incident. It’s best to defect when you’re away from the country you’re defecting from and in the one you’re defecting to. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/30 "2011-08-03T10:36:19Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Come on, it isn’t like we have the most impenetrable borders … Except, you see, America is JUST THE SAME as United Soviet Nazi Germany! JUST THE SAME, YOU SEE! Joey Hitler on on your doorstep and if you don’t agree you’re a blind little blindy blind-blind-blind! **ALL SAME ALL SAME ALL SAME!** (Note: Gotta change the tapes more often. This one was in heavy rotation in the 1990s!) ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/31 "2011-08-03T17:02:40Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Well, there is a difference between defection and emigration. Defection implies that you are doing something “wrong” in the eyes of your home country, frequently something of interest to intelligence agencies - e.g. you know classified information from your home country, you have advanced technology such as the latest fighter plane, etc. Plain old emigration is more mundane. I think that’s important to stress here. If you’re pilot of a fighter jet (and bring that jet with you!) or a spy, then defecting means that the new country will welcome you with open arms for your knowledge. If you are just a garden variety person with no “knowledge” and no star persona for propaganda to latch onto (I think a big deal was made when Stalin’s daughter fled the USSR?), then as Joe Schmoe you’re left with the asylum route - and the host country can deny the asylum if they think you’re not worth the trouble, or they don’t want to have another immigrant with not useful skills to earn money themselves, just low-level work. I know we have one doper who works in / for immigration (Eva Luna?) and some juristic dopers: what’s the straight dope on people denied asylum, does the US still deport them to their country of origin, or was the law changed and the deportation is suspended if there is reasonable concern they might be executed there? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/32 "2011-08-03T17:11:08Z")
> [@Mike\_Mac](#): > > I’m not necessarily saying people will want to renounce, but what can be crazy one day might be considered quite sane and rational the next. Timing can be the difference between life and death. Consider a few million people in Wiemar Germany who could have left in 1931, but could not in 1939. Inside of a decade a highly civilized nation became a despotic murderous regime. Same story in Czarist Russia, Cuba and PRC, etc. Our own downward trajectory probably most resembles Wiemar Germany. If you compare today with 100 years ago, say 1911, in terms of the Constitution, we’ve gone from an ocean of rights with little islands of government power, to an ocean of government power with little islands of rights. Look at our money supply and the dollar, and our debt. > > So maybe we’re living in the 1934 Wiemar Republic now, and by the time most people want to get out, it will be too late. And that empty-your-pockets as you exit tax law was just passed a few years ago…if they can do that, what’s next? > By 1939, the Third Reich was doing whatever it wanted. First nitpick: It’s [Weimar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar)(after the town where the constitution was written), not Wiemar. Second nitpick: comparing current-day USA with Weimar Germany about to fail is disingenious for many reasons, and besides, makes you look like a blathering idiot from the right fringe about to hide in the woods. So in your own interest, I’d recommend looking at the facts first. Lastly, I wondered where you got the spurios idea from that when you leave the US and renounce your citizenship, you have to hand over all your possessions. On what law would this idea be based? Cecil notes in his column that > [@](#): > > You also have to supply certain tax-related info and turn in your passport. . Did you misunderstand this? Certainly, given that > [@](#): > > Setting aside cases of dual nationality, emigration, etc., people who renounce their citizenship typically are war criminals (who do it under the baleful eye of a judge to avoid the expense of a deportation hearing), the aforementioned militia members, and billionaire fat cats who do it to avoid U.S. taxes (although the feds are tightening up on this–that’s why they ask renunciants for tax info) if the US govt. decided to take steps to curb billionaires leaving the country with their money does make sense and is legitimate, considering that people used the country’s resources to earn that money in the first place and are thus (ethically, morally, legally) required to pay some back into the community in form of taxes. That does not at all equal the idea of “handing over all your assets”. Maybe you need to check your sources. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/33 "2011-08-03T17:12:26Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Come on, it isn’t like we have the most impenetrable borders … Depends on the direction - the US _has_ built a wall towards Mexico, like East Germany… (okay, without mines, I think. Still, not a good image and ideology for the “Land of the free” to build a wall). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/34 "2011-08-03T17:26:11Z")
Comparing U.S. border protections along the Mexican border with the Berlin Wall is laughable. The U.S. “wall” is by no means as impenetrable, is not upheld with the routine application of deadly force, and is to keep illegal immigrants out, not to keep the people of the country which built it in. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/35 "2011-08-03T18:06:52Z")
I can’t believe I only just now noticed this was a year-old thread. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/36 "2011-08-03T18:45:00Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > I know we have one doper who works in / for immigration (Eva Luna?) and some juristic dopers: what’s the straight dope on people denied asylum, does the US still deport them to their country of origin, or was the law changed and the deportation is suspended if there is reasonable concern they might be executed there? If there was a reasonable concern they would be executed, they would be granted asylum absent some absolute bar to remaining on US soil. “if there is reasonable concern they might be executed there” – That’s almost the definition of the basis for granting asylum. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/37 "2011-08-03T19:15:23Z")
Too late to edit but a [very brief explanation of the asylum process](http://www.justice.gov/eoir/press/07/AsylumVariationsNov07.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/38 "2011-08-03T19:42:41Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Read this wrong the first time. I thought you said… > “How does defecating in another country work?” > > I was going to reassure you that it works just like it did at your own home. 😃 > > One tiny letter makes a lot of difference. [For example](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDu0xybhtGk) (see scene starting at 7:15) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/39 "2011-08-03T20:15:38Z")
In Russia, woods defecate in bears! ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070/40 "2011-08-04T03:02:09Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Second nitpick: comparing current-day USA with Weimar Germany about to fail is disingenious for many reasons, and besides, makes you look like a blathering idiot from the right fringe about to hide in the woods. Gee, and only a few short years ago it was received wisdom on the left that Bush = Hitler and the US was descending into fascism. _Tempora mutantur_, I guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-defecting-to-another-country-work/544070.md?page=3)