# How does 'except in the case of rape or incest' actually work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182 "2016-10-10T20:59:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/41 "2016-10-11T15:52:14Z")
As a Catholic, the options are clear (not easy, though). 1. Oppose direct abortion in all cases. 2. Mother’s life in danger? Do what it takes and if death of the child is the unintended consequence, then, sadly, be it. If such legislation cannot be passed you should strive for the option that minimises abortions while keeping it illegal. So, if the two options are unrestricted abortion and “except in…”, then go for the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/42 "2016-10-11T16:24:15Z")
So you would encourage a woman who has been raped to keep quiet about it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/43 "2016-10-11T16:50:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So you would encourage a woman who has been raped to keep quiet about it. I’m unclear how you could reasonably draw that conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/44 "2016-10-11T18:26:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m unclear how you could reasonably draw that conclusion. From this - > [@](#): > > And the ‘she should want the criminal arrested and punished’ is a breathtakingly ignorant statement, because it ignores that in many cases (especially cases with no physical evidence of force against a rich, white attacker) reporting a rape has extremely low odds of resulting in ‘criminal arrested and punished’, and extremely high odds of the woman being abused by the police department, prosecutor, and defense lawyers. If the attacker is likely to get away unscathed or serve a token three month jail sentence, and the attempt at getting justice is likely to do more damage than the initial crime, then in many cases she would want to just put the trauma behind her instead of dragging it out in a useless, painful process. And other quotes in the thread which you can read for yourself. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/45 "2016-10-11T18:57:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > From this -And other quotes in the thread which you can read for yourself. > > Regards, > Shodan If you read the quote, you would see that he was saying that it is extremely ignorant to expect that every woman that is raped come forward, this is acknowledging the reality of the situation. It would be great if they could. It would be good for everyone if we lived in an environment where a woman who was violated in the most intimate way possible would feel comfortable coming out about it, and getting justice for herself and her attacker. We do not live in that world. Some of us are working towards getting there though. Do you believe that your comments help to move us toward or away from a world where women who are sexually assaulted do not fear retaliation, disbelief, or public humiliation for reporting the crime against them? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/46 "2016-10-11T19:03:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you read the quote, you would see that he was saying that it is extremely ignorant to expect that every woman that is raped come forward, this is acknowledging the reality of the situation. > > It would be great if they could. It would be good for everyone if we lived in an environment where a woman who was violated in the most intimate way possible would feel comfortable coming out about it, and getting justice for herself and her attacker. > > We do not live in that world. Some of us are working towards getting there though. Do you believe that your comments help to move us toward or away from a world where women who are sexually assaulted do not fear retaliation, disbelief, or public humiliation for reporting the crime against them? Would you encourage a woman who was raped to report it to the police? Why or why not? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/47 "2016-10-11T19:09:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > From this I side with k9bfriender on this - this quote does not encourage a raped woman to stay silent, it just recognizes the reality that speaking up doesn’t guarantee justice. Setting up a system where she _has_ to speak up if she wants an abortion (whether or not she was actually raped, she’d have to _say_ she was at some point) doesn’t improve the “justice” rate as cmkeller suggests. For starters, you’d need to vastly improve investigation techniques so SAE kits don’t languish untested for years, and deal with the false positives of women who file a false claim because the state is forcing them to. If you have any other, more relevant quotes in mind, I remain curious. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/48 "2016-10-11T19:53:59Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > It’s for political reasons. Saying that abortion is banned in the instance of rape would be a political nonstarter. Like pro-choicers who say that 3rd-trimester abortions shouldn’t be allowed. There is a philosophical basis for permitting abortions early in a pregnancy but not later in a pregnancy. The notion is that early in the pregnancy, the rights of the mother to exercise reproductive choice is superior to the state interest in the life of the fetus and the fetus’s right to life. Later in the development of the fetus, the state interest in the life of the fetus and the fetus’s right to life dominate and the mother has been foreclosed from exercising her choice. I generally follow this philosophy. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/49 "2016-10-11T19:54:59Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > The life of the mother is separate from the other two. There’s probably immediate medical evidence to back her up, and it’s not a case of failing to value the life of the fetus, but simply of valuing the mother’s life at least as much. There aren’t really any practical issues with determining whether that is triggered, except I suppose some fringe cases. But if you say “until x weeks” you have fringe cases, there are always fringe cases. > > I think the rape exception runs something along the lines of “you can’t force an invited guest to leave if it would kill them to do so, but you don’t owe that hospitality to the uninvited guest”. Where every instance of consensual sex is effectively considered to be inviting an embryo into your womb. I don’t really know how it is implemented in practice. That probably varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Um, ARE there any jurisdictions where that is the law? The Starks of Winterfell observe this guestright. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/50 "2016-10-11T19:59:59Z")
> [@RenaissanceMan203](#): > > The child does not belong to the State, nor is the State going to potentially carry it to term. The State has no right to infringe upon a person’s liberty to do with their body what they please so long as there is no detriment to another sentient person. Therefore I reject the premise that the State has any say in this activity. That’s nice. And if I poison your fetus so that you miscarry because I don’t want to pay child support, can I be charged with a crime? If so, what crime? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/51 "2016-10-11T20:45:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Would you encourage a woman who was raped to report it to the police? Why or why not? > > Regards, > Shodan Yes, if asked my opinion, I would encourage a woman to report a rape to the police. I would support her in every way I was able if she chose that course. If she does not feel safe doing so, however, I would not hold it against her. I certainly wouldn’t make her carry a child to term that is a result of that rape because she was not willing to go through the public humiliation of a rape trial. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/52 "2016-10-12T01:50:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Don’t you think that not reporting a crime makes it less likely that someone will be convicted of it? I realized that was unclear after I posted, but ran out of time to edit. Fortunately, this means I can make an even longer clarification. I’m reporting reality. Many women refuse to report because they don’t think that people will be punished. Even if reporting technically makes it more likely to be convicted, it is a small amount. The risk that they won’t be punished is high enough that they don’t report them. It’s not worth it to go through everything you have to just to not get a conviction. And then, yes, to face social retaliation, because people mistake “not guilty” with “innocent, and you were lying.” Any small increase in real accusations would be swamped by false ones, which will clog up the courts, (It’s no easier to prove a false report than to prove that someone was raped.) But those who are actually raped and have to fight PTSD symptoms to even talk about it to the point that they didn’t want to report it before are not going to be any more likely to participate. Furthermore, as someone who has experienced at least part of what PTSD sufferers experience–having panic attacks–I can tell you that I would definitely try other methods to terminate the pregnancy before I would force myself into that situation. It’s not as if abortions didn’t happen before Roe v. Wade–they were just less safe. No, not every rape victim experiences PTSD. But those that do are the ones who won’t report rape. It’s not like most women are horrible people who would not report rape because they don’t care about anyone else. Reporting is a traumatic experience. Going to court months after it happened and you’re starting to get better is worse. Having someone whose job it is to try and undermine you and call you a liar and imply you have loose morals makes it even worse. Triggering PTSD does not cure it, BTW. It only exacerbates it. You have to trigger it in small enough quantities to develop a sort of immunity. You have to make sure the person feels in control, so that they don’t have a full on attack. I also note that a panic attack is that thing that happens when you waterboard–that people couldn’t stand for more than a few seconds. And you’re asking them to do this to themselves. I would stab myself with a knife if that stopped a panic attack. So, by trying to force people to report, you are forcing some of them to do something worse than stabbing themselves with a knife. And, as I said, it still won’t work. All that pain for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/53 "2016-10-12T02:11:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Would you encourage a woman who was raped to report it to the police? Why or why not? > > Regards, > > Shodan Does she want to report it? Then, yes. Does she not want to report it? Then no. If a conviction is unlikely or impossible, and reporting will make your life worse, it’s perfectly valid to choose not to. Rape trials are notoriously unpleasant for the victim, and if the rape can’t be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, justice will never happen. What’s the value of putting yourself through that? ---
**Author:** ![RenaissanceMan203](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/94ad74/32.png) [@RenaissanceMan203](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RenaissanceMan203)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/54 "2016-10-12T02:38:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That’s nice. > > And if I poison your fetus so that you miscarry because I don’t want to pay child support, can I be charged with a crime? If so, what crime? Then you would be committing an assault against the woman in this equation. ---
**Author:** ![RenaissanceMan203](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/94ad74/32.png) [@RenaissanceMan203](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RenaissanceMan203)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/55 "2016-10-12T02:59:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > “…so long as there is no detriment to another sentient person”. That right there is the key. A fetus, past a fairly early point of development, is definitely sentient. Is it a person? Well, now, that’s trickier: First, give us a definition of “person”, and then keep in mind that others might use a different definition. If a fetus _is_ a person, well then surely the state does have an interest in protecting it. Until a being is born and is no longer is reliant on being a passive parasitic passenger inside of another person, then they do not rise to the point of being a person. A sentient person is one that has the ability to have organized thoughts and has some manner of control over ones body. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/56 "2016-10-12T03:52:06Z")
> [@RenaissanceMan203](#): > > Until a being is born and is no longer is reliant on being a passive parasitic passenger inside of another person, then they do not rise to the point of being a person. . . . Of course, some legislatures have crafted laws against feticide, which is (in my opinion) not unreasonable. It should certainly be illegal for someone to kill someone else’s fetus without their consent. It doesn’t grant the fetus legal personhood, but just establishes legal protection. Heck, you can’t kill my dog without my consent…but it doesn’t make it a person. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/57 "2016-10-12T04:12:50Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Heck, you can’t kill my dog without my consent…but it doesn’t make it a person. What if the fetus has rabies? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/58 "2016-10-12T05:04:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What if the fetus has rabies? THAT’S why the rabbit died! I always wondered! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/59 "2016-10-12T07:55:48Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Of course, some legislatures have crafted laws against feticide, which is (in my opinion) not unreasonable. It should certainly be illegal for someone to kill someone else’s fetus without their consent. It doesn’t grant the fetus legal personhood, but just establishes legal protection. > > Heck, you can’t kill my dog without my consent…but it doesn’t make it a person. It’s also illegal to burn down my house without my consent but that doesn’t mean my house is alive. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182/60 "2016-10-12T11:10:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What if the fetus has rabies? Then it will be born and eventually be a passenger seated near me on a plane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-except-in-the-case-of-rape-or-incest-actually-work/768182.md?page=4)