# How does heaven work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 31, 2000, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-heaven-work/39070 "2000-10-31T12:38:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-heaven-work/39070/21 "2000-10-31T23:13:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gr8Kat \* > "I have no friends or money or fun, but when Jesus comes back–and it _will_ be any day now–_I’ll_ be raptured up to heaven in a twinkling and the terrible sinners who are enjoying life so much now will be tormented for all eternity. 😕 Why do you carpool with some one who has no money? Where is he going? And why doesn’t he have any money? Has he forgotten the scripture: Eat, drink and be merry all the days of your life? And hasn’t he read the words of Jesus? > [@](#): > > So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, `We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’" Or those of the apostle James? > [@](#): > > 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you–who are you to judge your neighbor? > 13 Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” > 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. > 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” > 16 As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. > 17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins. All these false Christians! What is do be done with these people??? ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-heaven-work/39070/22 "2000-10-31T23:15:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > And why doesn’t he have any money? That should have said – why doesn’t he have any fun. Mea culpa! ---
**Author:** ![Gr8Kat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gr8kat/32/18668_2.png) [@Gr8Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gr8Kat)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2000, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-heaven-work/39070/23 "2000-11-01T00:07:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Why do you carpool with some one who has no money? Where is he going? And why doesn’t he have any money? Has he forgotten the scripture: Eat, drink and be merry all the days of your life? My carpool partner is a real piece of work. She never has any money because she blows it at the beginning of every month, so maybe she does have fun, but I meant _fun_ fun; y’know, drinkin’ (some people are saying now that the “wine” people drank in Biblical days was really grape juice), carousing, cussin’, that stuff us worthless heathens do. Yesterday she announced she wasn’t even going to buy candy for trick-or-treaters because “I don’t celebrate Satan’s birthday!” Later she admitted it’s because she’s broke until tomorrow. Anyway, my point is a lot of this kind of talk sounds like sour grapes to me. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2000, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-heaven-work/39070/24 "2000-11-01T00:35:28Z")
> [@](#): > > …delighting in the suffering of others in a sin… > [@](#): > > Surely God will bring you down to everlasting ruin: He will snatch you up and tear you from your > tent; he will uproot you from the land of the living. Selah. The righteous will see and fear; they will laugh at him, saying, “Here now is the man who did not make God his stronghold but trusted in his great wealth and grew strong by destroying others!” [Psalms 52:5-7](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PS+52:5-7&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on) > [@](#): > > But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you–when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind, when distress and trouble overwhelm you. [Proverbs 1:24-27](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PROV+1:24-27&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on) > [@](#): > > Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: “`Woe! Woe, O great city, O Babylon, city of power! In one hour your doom has come!’…Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you.’” > [Revelation 18:10…20](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+18:10-20&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on) ---
**Author:** ![Phil\_15](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Phil\_15](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phil_15)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2000, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-heaven-work/39070/25 "2000-11-01T04:07:15Z")
There are many current biblical scholars who believe that there was a separate place from heaven called Paradise that ceased to exist after Jesus had been resurrected from the grave. All those who were in Paradise at time were then taken directly into heaven and at death from that time forth, the saints would go directly to be in the presence of God. My understanding is that there would be no marriage in heaven therefor raising the possibility that there is no distinction between male and female after death and while we may recognize our loved ones, there will be no remembrance of those who who didn’t make it. The very thought of gaining pleasure in viewing others eternal torment, I find very repugnant and it goes against everything I have read in the scriptures. ---
**Author:** ![JDeMobray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@JDeMobray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDeMobray)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2000, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-heaven-work/39070/26 "2000-11-01T04:19:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phil\_15 \* > **There are many current biblical scholars who believe that there was a separate place from heaven called Paradise that ceased to exist after Jesus had been resurrected from the grave. All those who were in Paradise at time were then taken directly into heaven and at death from that time forth, the saints would go directly to be in the presence of God.** Er. . . On what exactly are they basing this interpretation? I know that you may think me trite But could you, maybe, post a cite? ---
**Author:** ![Phil\_15](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Phil\_15](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phil_15)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2000, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-heaven-work/39070/27 "2000-11-01T04:49:51Z")
The first one that I ever read covering this is Phinas Dake (“God’s Plan for Man”). There are many others but the bed beconds and I will provide cites tomorrow. The basic premise comes from Jesus’ story of the poor beggar Lazarus; His conversation with the thief while on the cross; followed by Jesus telling Mary in the garden that He had not been with His Father in Heaven yet He had promised the thief He would see him on Friday in Paradise. This leads to a conclusion that Heaven and Paradise were at one time two separate places. Paul states later that to be absent from the body (dead) is to be in the presence of the Lord. That’s the nickel tour, more later. ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2000, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-heaven-work/39070/28 "2000-11-01T06:41:12Z")
> [@](#): > > The basic premise comes from Jesus’ story of the poor beggar Lazarus; His conversation with the thief while on the cross; followed by Jesus telling Mary in the garden that He had not been with His Father in Heaven yet He had promised the thief He would see him on Friday in Paradise. This leads to a conclusion that Heaven and Paradise were at one time two separate places. This seems to me to be an ad hoc explanation for a Biblical problem, or at least the part about the thief on the cross. Luke has Jesus saying that he (the thief) will be with him in paradise that day. But Jesus supposedly spent the three days (or was it more like 40 hours?) after his crucifixion under the ground before ascending to Heaven. Rather than admit that somebody along the line made a mistake (hint: it was Luke!), Biblicists come up with some far-fetched explanation about how heaven and paradise are two separate places, or at least were until the resurrection A much more likely explanation is that Luke, copying from Mark, decided to alter the story of the two thieves on the cross for theological purposes. He had already done so in the mere act of having one of them exalt Jesus, whereas Matthew and Mark claim that they both reviled him. Luke tops it off with a little rhetorical flourish about the penetant thief being with Jesus in heaven that day, forgetting all about the resurrection dealy. A similar error can be observed in Matthew’s story of John the Baptist, where John somehow knows that Jesus is the Messiah one moment, and isn’t so sure the next. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2000, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-heaven-work/39070/29 "2000-11-01T07:56:34Z")
> [@](#): > > …the primary suffering of hell is separation from God… Language like this seems to be used an awful lot as a description of the essence of hell. What do Christians who describe hell this way (at least some of whom seem to be fairly literal in their interpretation of the Bible) make of [Revelation 14:9-11](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+14:9-11&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on)? > [@](#): > > _ **Emphasis** added:_ > > A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. **He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.** And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2000, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-heaven-work/39070/30 "2000-11-01T11:13:02Z")
According to Jerry Falwell God would erase the memory of loved ones in hell so if you make it to heaven and your spouse does not, you won’t remember them. See nothing to worry about God will take care of it. ---
**Author:** ![Biffer\_Spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Biffer\_Spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffer_Spice)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2000, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-heaven-work/39070/31 "2000-11-01T14:13:18Z")
That’s pretty damn depressing to be honest. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2000, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-heaven-work/39070/32 "2000-11-01T16:03:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Icerigger \* > \*\*According to Jerry Falwell God would erase the memory of loved ones in hell so if you make it to heaven and your spouse does not, you won’t remember them. See nothing to worry about God will take care of it. \*\* Divine mind control? If that were true it would be even more proof that free will is not accorded any importance in the afterlife. Why would anyone want to worship a Falwell-type God who treats them essentially as a toy? ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2000, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-heaven-work/39070/33 "2000-11-01T21:14:20Z")
**MEBuckner** – hmmm. Well, perhaps you are right. I guess there is nothing wrong with saying “I told ya so.” The example from Rev. is more the rejoice over the destruction of Babylon than a person. As for the punishment for those who do business in the market place being severe, Jesus’s own words attest to this in Luke 12: > [@](#): > > 47 "That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with > many blows. > 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who > has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be > asked. Once again implying there are levels to the sufferings of hell. **Opus** – a brilliantly sane understanding. I’m impressed. But I think the verse everyone is missing is that a Christian’s family are those who hear the word of God and act on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-heaven-work/39070.md?page=1)