# How does "Intelligent Design" account for ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986 "2005-09-04T03:09:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/21 "2005-09-04T09:37:51Z")
**Pullet** , so have you replaced it with a clear-cut set of guidlines telling you how to live and what to do, or are you still stuck having to use your judgment to sort things out like those Bible-readers? There are plenty of good arguments against ID and theism in general, but yours isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/22 "2005-09-04T09:59:23Z")
I’m using my judgement right now not to call you a flame blasted troll. Awful lot of anger for so early in the morning, **Alan**. Have you had your coffee yet? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/23 "2005-09-04T10:46:12Z")
> [@Alan Smithee](#): > > **Pullet** , so have you replaced it with a clear-cut set of guidlines telling you how to live and what to do, or are you still stuck having to use your judgment to sort things out like those Bible-readers? You miss the point. If Pullett is a humanist I’m sure he/she accepts they have to sort things out for themselves. I’m yet to meet a humanist who thought that life provided a clear cut set of guidelines. Fundie Bible-readers say that it is not a matter of sorting things out for themselves, there are rules that God has told them, to be found in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/24 "2005-09-04T19:22:15Z")
I’m an atheist myself, so there’s no anger or missing the point at all. **Pullet** wasn’t just bashing fundies, (a worthy sport, IMO), he was claiming that because the Bible doesn’t do what fundies claim (i.e., providing unambiguous rules straight from God) it is “impossible” to make sense of and should be “scrapped.” That’s a straw man argument, and a poor one at that. Plenty of Christians and Jews see scripture as something other than a set of unambiguous rules, and nothing in the text indicates (to me) that we should expect it to be that. And if he can read the Straight Dope without getting confused over which posts to believe and which not to, sorting out which parts of the Bible are meant as allegory or parable and which aren’t should be child’s play, if he’s willing to do a little reading on historical context and the development of the supporting religious tradition. OTOH, I was suffering from insomnia and hadn’t had any coffee, so if I misunderstood or came across as tetchy (or if I do now) I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/25 "2005-09-04T19:33:26Z")
One thing to recall about **I** ntelligent **D** esign, (capitalized as a specific movement alongside science, as opposed to simple theistic evolution, a philosophical/theological approach to what science turns up), is that the proponents of Intelligent Design such as Behe and Dembski _do not claim that Darwin’s Theory of Natural Selection never applies_. They are usually quite happy to acknowledge that it provides the majority of the grunt labor shaping life forms. They simply want to be able to wedge God (or the god-like designer) into the equation so that they can avoid seeing an a-theistic explanation. I am sure that Dembski’s, Pennock’s, or Behe’s explanation of fast reacting microbes would be identical to the explanation provided by Mayr, Gould, or Dawkins. They are not interested in creating a whole new Theory of Evolution, they just want to keep enough of it separate so that they can keep God in the picture. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/26 "2005-09-04T21:00:14Z")
Does any branch of evolution theory believe that the process has stopped? I’ve never heard of any. To those that say that because everything isn’t perfect there can’t be an **I** ntellectual **D** esign, I would say that the _Grand Scheme_ is still playing out. Also I personally don’t think that **perfection** is necessarily the goal and if it is, it is not **perfection** according to human standards. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/27 "2005-09-04T22:54:38Z")
> [@](#): > > To those that say that because everything isn’t perfect there can’t be an **I** ntellectual **D** esign, I would say that the Grand Scheme is still playing out. The point of Intelligent Design is that there are features and functions that could not have arisen by chance. “Perfection” is not part of the equation. Some opponents of Intelligent Design do, however, like to point out that if there is a designer handling things, that designer has not done a very good job, (“running the sewer through the playground,” for example, navicular disease in animals that only survive by running, etc.). It is not a serious objection to ID, only a humorous slap at those who insist that the designer must be so necessary (given the many errors in the designs). ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/28 "2005-09-04T23:01:26Z")
> [@kniz](#): > > Does any branch of evolution theory believe that the process has stopped? I’ve never heard of any. To those that say that because everything isn’t perfect there can’t be an **I** ntellectual **D** esign, I would say that the _Grand Scheme_ is still playing out. Also I personally don’t think that **perfection** is necessarily the goal and if it is, it is not **perfection** according to human standards. Can this Intelligent Designer see into the future? If so, why the need to “tinker”? Could he see into the future and realize that things might need fixing, but be unable to correct it at the source? If so, does this suggest a limit to his powers? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/29 "2005-09-05T02:26:00Z")
> [@Pullet](#): > > I’m using my judgement right now not to call you a flame blasted troll. > > Awful lot of anger for so early in the morning, **Alan**. Have you had your coffee yet? Sorry I missed this earlier. **Pullet** you are seriously out of line for **Great Debates**. Do not dso this again. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/30 "2005-09-05T17:44:13Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Can this Intelligent Designer see into the future? If so, why the need to “tinker”? Could he see into the future and realize that things might need fixing, but be unable to correct it at the source? If so, does this suggest a limit to his powers? No it does not suggest a limit to his powers. Not only do we have no current knowledge of “his” goals, I don’t think we could have that knowledge. Which means we can not judge ANY design to be good/bad/close/almost, etc. It is entirely possible there is a set of goals such that the current state of biology on this planet is an absolutely perfect instance of a solution. Note: I do not believe in ID, and I am probably agnostic. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/31 "2005-09-05T18:06:13Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > No it does not suggest a limit to his powers. > > Not only do we have no current knowledge of “his” goals, I don’t think we could have that knowledge. Which means we can not judge ANY design to be good/bad/close/almost, etc. It doesn’t matter what the goal is. I am not judging the design. The assumption was that evolution need a little “nudge” every now and then. My question was whether the designer could foresee the need for the nudge, and if so, why not fix it then? > [@RaftPeople](#): > > It is entirely possible there is a set of goals such that the current state of biology on this planet is an absolutely perfect instance of a solution. > > Note: I do not believe in ID, and I am probably agnostic. Well, if the current biology is in a “perfect” state, that suggests predestination. The assumption then becomes that he set it up to _need_ the nudge for whatever his mysterious, unknowable goal might be. You might as well say that _everything_ happens for a reason, for how do we separate biology from the rest of history? If predestination is the justification for ID, then I submit that it is entirely possible for an Intelligent Designer to create a world where there is no tooth decay, where humans have separate apparati for breathing and eating (like snakes do, the little devils,) where free will exists, and yet everyone always makes the right choice. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/32 "2005-09-05T18:40:50Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > It doesn’t matter what the goal is. I am not judging the design. The assumption was that evolution need a little “nudge” every now and then. My question was whether the designer could foresee the need for the nudge, and if so, why not fix it then? I see your point, and I think we agree on one thing: ID is a crock of you know what. But I wasn’t sure anyone could provide evidence that evolution (in the ID scheme) “needed” a nudge, because for all we know, “he” designed the system from the beginning to automatically get “nudged” at the right time. > [@](#): > > Well, if the current biology is in a “perfect” state, that suggests predestination. **The assumption then becomes that he set it up to _need_ the nudge for whatever his mysterious, unknowable goal might be.** You might as well say that _everything_ happens for a reason, for how do we separate biology from the rest of history? I agree, it seems ridiculous, like having a magic wild-card variable in every mathematical equation making the solution come out right. If the ID proponents introduce a magic wild-card, how can we put limits on it’s use? I don’t think we can. > [@](#): > > If predestination is the justification for ID, then I submit that it is entirely possible for an Intelligent Designer to create a world where there is no tooth decay, where humans have separate apparati for breathing and eating (like snakes do, the little devils,) where free will exists, and yet everyone always makes the right choice. Aside from allowing for free will, which is an entirely separate topic, I would only disagree because it’s possible, due to the physical laws of the universe (that “he” willingly abides by), that some configurations of the universe are not possible. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/33 "2005-09-05T21:48:26Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Aside from allowing for free will, which is an entirely separate topic, I would only disagree because it’s possible, due to the physical laws of the universe (that “he” willingly abides by), that some\*\* configurations of the universe \*\* **are not possible**. I will grant you that some configurations of _this_ universe are not possible. But the Intelligent Designer made the universe, did he not? Or do the ID proponents assert that the designer is a _feature_ of the universe? If he made it, he could make it any way he chooses. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/34 "2005-09-05T22:30:38Z")
To get back the the OP; Intelligent Design (the movement, that is), addresses things like this by aiming for a position consisting of “it’s impossible to know anything for sure, so don’t bother inquiring”. That might seem a little harsh, but in all my dealings with IDers, I’ve been given any number of detailed explanations and defences of what ID _isn’t_ and what it _doesn’t_ do and _doesn’t_ assert, etc. Trying to find out what it _does_ say/do on any given matter is like trying to nail jelly to a tree - it is deliberately obscure, ill-defined and obfuscated, because the purpose is to stifle inquiry, rather than promote it. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/35 "2005-09-06T21:23:49Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > To get back the the OP; Intelligent Design (the movement, that is), addresses things like this by aiming for a position consisting of “it’s impossible to know anything for sure, so don’t bother inquiring”. That might seem a little harsh, but in all my dealings with IDers, I’ve been given any number of detailed explanations and defences of what ID _isn’t_ and what it _doesn’t_ do and _doesn’t_ assert, etc. > Trying to find out what it _does_ say/do on any given matter is like trying to nail jelly to a tree - it is deliberately obscure, ill-defined and obfuscated, because the purpose is to stifle inquiry, rather than promote it. Right. Where does ID fit in with the rest of Natural History, like the Big Bang, continental drift and the Ice Age? Did dinosaurs die out 65 million years ago or did they co-exist with humans? ID is promoted in order to provide students with an “escape clause” so they’re less likely to stop believing the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/36 "2005-09-06T23:32:35Z")
Not sure about it being an escape clause as such, but it’s definitely a purposeful attempt to generate a false notion of controversy and doubt where none really exists. I was rather amused recently to hear that new Scientist had published a piece saying that perhaps as many as 50% of all published scientific papers may contain errors or be incorrect; the funny part is that the ID camp seems to have interpreted this as an invitation to _choose_ which 50% of the material they’d like this to be. ---
**Author:** ![yerba\_buena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/7ea924/32.png) [@yerba\_buena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yerba_buena)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/37 "2005-09-07T00:11:10Z")
If my interpretation of the OP is correct, then I think most people in this thread have missed the point. I interpret the OP as saying, “Doesn’t the fact that bacteria become quickly resistant show that bacteria aren’t perfect, and hence, disprove an intelligent designer?” And there is a factual answer to that question: those who reject evolution generally hold to the belief that (1) humans are special and (2) God allows bad stuff to happen so he can fix it. The self-consistent (but not necessarily correct) reply would be that God designed bacteria with certain loopholes so that he could show people the cure with antibiotics, and that, lest people start worshipping antibiotics, he allows bacteria to gain resistance so we will always depend on him. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/38 "2005-09-07T00:20:32Z")
I’m not that smart 🙂 My “point” in the OP was that it was pretty obvious, and now proven, that bacteria mutate in a way that evolution would predict. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/39 "2005-09-07T12:41:33Z")
> [@yerba buena](#): > > If my interpretation of the OP is correct, then I think most people in this thread have missed the point. > > I interpret the OP as saying, “Doesn’t the fact that bacteria become quickly resistant show that bacteria aren’t perfect, and hence, disprove an intelligent designer?” > > And there is a factual answer to that question: those who reject evolution generally hold to the belief that (1) humans are special and (2) God allows bad stuff to happen so he can fix it. The self-consistent (but not necessarily correct) reply would be that God designed bacteria with certain loopholes so that he could show people the cure with antibiotics, and that, lest people start worshipping antibiotics, he allows bacteria to gain resistance so we will always depend on him. Or to put it another way, if unlimited weaselling is permitted, _anything_ can be explained away. IDists often also explain bacterial resistance as evidence of forethought on the part of [del]God[/del] the unknown intelligent designer. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/40 "2005-09-08T03:00:01Z")
> [@Rhiannon8404](#): > > Well, _ **I** _ believe he takes an active role, sort of nudging things when needed. Why doesn’t He nudge things in an intelligent directione then? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986.md?page=3)