# How does "Intelligent Design" account for ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986 "2005-09-04T03:09:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/101 "2005-09-10T17:00:55Z")
> [@Bible man](#): > > Jesus was speaking of the generation which saw the particular sign(s) under discusssion not the generation He was speaking to. > > Jesus addressed the end times in detail in Matthew ch 24 and Luke ch 21 and likened it to birth pains which increase in intensity and frequency. Each generation experiences the same type of problems, but they increase to involve the entire world in the end times. The warning of Luke21:34-36 should be heeded by all generations, but especially the last generation, “But take heed to yourselves and be on your guard lest your hearts be overburdened and depressed with self indulgence, drunkenness, and worldly worries and cares, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap or a noose; For it will come upon all who live upon the face of the entire earth. Keep awake then an watch at all times, praying that you may have the full strength and ability and be accounted worthy to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of man.” > Peter summarizes the delayed return of Christ in 2Peter3:9, “The Lord is not slow about what He promises (ie, His return) according to some people’s conception of slowness, but He is longsuffering toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance.” Thus, His delayed return is for the purpose of bringing as many as possible into the kingdom of God. > I don’t think you can consider the forces at work in the world right now and expect things to ever be stable again, conditions are ripe for further violent social eruptions not to mention increased physical calamities. We’re on the Titanic, and the only good news is that Christ promises that He will return with His kingdom following the troublesome times. > > Zechariah 12:10 prophesies that the nation of Israel will recognize Christ as their Messiah at the end. And your series of long scripture lessons bears upon ID, the subject of the OP, how? ---
**Author:** ![Bible\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bible\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bible_man)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/102 "2005-09-10T18:01:43Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. The original promoters of ID were all Old Earth Creationists, to begin with. A few YECs have jumped on the ID bandwagon in the hopes of re-inserting religion into biology classes, but the actual early writings of ID proponents expected a world very much shaped by the evolutionary process, just one in which their “designer” could tinker with individual events enough to get God back into the discussion. The Intelligent Design\Old Earth proponents have made a great try at giving the schools an alternative thought process away from the flawed and unscientific teachings of evolutionary theory. They have made inroads by avoiding the taboo name of God and simply demonstrate the statistical impossibility that complex organisms and systems could come into existence by chance. They have also compromised with evolutionists by leaving open the possibility that the unknown designer did this thru an evolutionary process. Thus they avoid the God\religion problem and pacify the evolutionists by including them. It’s not a bad compromise since they bring some light to those who otherwise dwell in pitch darkness. The Young Earther’s differ in that they want to identify the Designer as the God of the Bible and want to also identify Darwin’s theory as without any merit at all. The Young Earthers, who are challenged to sit quietly on their hands in the midst of compromise, should be given some slack when some of them jump up now and then and attempt to turn up the lights a little more. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/103 "2005-09-10T18:19:18Z")
> [@](#): > > and want to also identify Darwin’s theory as without any merit at all. And since this statement is factually false, the premise of the YEC contingent has no basis in evidence or truth and they should be prohibited from corrupting education in any but their own self-imposed ghettoes. > [@](#): > > They have made inroads by avoiding the taboo name of God and simply demonstrate the statistical impossibility that complex organisms and systems could come into existence by chance. Neither the ID proponents nor the YEC champions have ever “demonstrated” any such thing except to their own predisposed audience. Most of the purported math used to make these demonstrations is flawed (and it is often supported by outright lies), so I see no reason to impose their flawed (and often dishonest) arguments on the educational system, either. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/104 "2005-09-10T18:21:14Z")
> [@Bible man](#): > > The Intelligent Design\Old Earth proponents have made a great try at giving the schools an alternative thought process away from the flawed and unscientific teachings of evolutionary theory. And we can correct these “flaws” and make the theory \*more \*scientific by including God? God is completely outside the realm of science. If he weren’t, he’d just be a really powerful extraterestrial (or terestrial if you wish). In that case, how did he come into being? You can’t have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/105 "2005-09-10T18:27:01Z")
> [@Bible man](#): > > Interesting theory but not very original, some guy named Darby or Darwin or something came up with it a long time ago and was never able to prove it with one shred of scientific evidence. After all these years all his devoted followers are able to do is continue to put baseless and unproven theories on the table and wave bigger and bigger numbers in front of us. I have to grant them that they do have tremendous faith and are following the largest non-theistic religion on the planet. Unfortunately it’s blind faith, and it leads to a Godless eternity. You will do better, here, if you do not resort to dishonesty to make false claims. First, Darby is over in your camp, pretending to have interpreted the _Revelation of John_ to describe things never intended by he author. Second, Darwin’s theory is not only scientific, it has been increasingly supported by scientific discovery, testing, and experiment for over 150 years, despite initial opposition from within the scientific community that has been disproven over the first 70 years of the period. ---
**Author:** ![Bible\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bible\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bible_man)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/106 "2005-09-10T19:09:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And since this statement is factually false, the premise of the YEC contingent has no basis in evidence or truth and they should be prohibited from corrupting education in any but their own self-imposed ghettoes. > > Neither the ID proponents nor the YEC champions have ever “demonstrated” any such thing except to their own predisposed audience. Most of the purported math used to make these demonstrations is flawed (and it is often supported by outright lies), so I see no reason to impose their flawed (and often dishonest) arguments on the educational system, either. Nice job of moderation, Tom. But I wish you’d quit holding back and let your real feelings show once in a while. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/107 "2005-09-10T19:44:34Z")
Nope. I will suppress my feelings in **GD** , presenting only demonstrable facts. A claim that Darwin’s Theory of Natural Selection is unscientific, however, is simply wrong on every count and it is distressing to see such nonsense posted (with neither evidence not logic) one more time in this Forum. I do not think that _you_ are lying. I suspect that you merely filter all information through your beliefs and fail to recognize actual facts when they are presented. However, among the supporters of your position are, indeed, liars and people who deliberately feed you untruths. (If you wish, we can dig up the list of deliberate lies that Hovind and Gish have had to retract and then went out and told again.) ---
**Author:** ![Bible\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bible\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bible_man)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/108 "2005-09-10T20:24:49Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > And we can correct these “flaws” and make the theory \*more \*scientific by including God? God is completely outside the realm of science. If he weren’t, he’d just be a really powerful extraterestrial (or terestrial if you wish). In that case, how did he come into being? You can’t have it both ways. You have summed up the problems exactly. The science we have been using is sufficient to examine natural processes but fails in its examination of the supernatural, but only because it refuses to bend. The Biblical account reports that a supernatural event undertaken by an Omnipotent and Sovereign Being was the beginning point of the physical realm. If science refuses to acknowledge that truth and keeps embracing theories which even oppose it, it not only ceases to be a force for good but becomes destructive. If science can’t find a way to yield itself to the truth, what good is it? The ID camp is coming up with some fascinating presentations that show how science can cooperate with the supernatural in a very convincing way. As more progress is made, the Darwin camp is going to start shrinking geometrically. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/109 "2005-09-10T20:29:35Z")
> [@](#): > > The ID camp is coming up with some fascinating presentations that show how science can cooperate with the supernatural in a very convincing way. The ID camp has not presented one single verifiable solution to any situation in biology and several of its proposed events have already been demonstrated to be false. (In particular, several of the claims made by Michael Behe in his “black box” book have already been demonstrated to be in error–as has the _misstatement_ that he published in that book, claiming that no scientists were researching that area of biology.) ---
**Author:** ![Bible\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bible\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bible_man)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/110 "2005-09-10T20:58:04Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > . And this long scripture lesson bears upon ID, the subject of the OP, how? [/QUOTE] I’m not sure how we got here but it must have been your fault, I have never been known to stray from the right path. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/111 "2005-09-10T21:07:14Z")
**Bible man** > [@](#): > > They have made inroads by avoiding the taboo name of God and simply demonstrate the statistical impossibility that complex organisms and systems could come into existence by chance. **Bible man** Any idea what the statistical improbability of your god just popping into existence might be? Is your god more or less complex than the universe it “created”? I know, I know. “He has always been”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/112 "2005-09-10T21:41:35Z")
> [@Bible man](#): > > But to try and answer your question, which I’m sure Dorothy could answer better: Yes, both old and new things can exist simultaneously! You can prove this yourself or use one of your science friends to help you. Examples: Adult and baby human beings coexist even though they came into existence at different times! The same principle holds true for starlight, the old exists with the new. And using the Biblical account, the same day God created complete organisms and plants and even geological structures, He also put in place processes for them to replenish. Wait, I’m thinking of a 3 letter word. DUH! That’s interesting, but ultimately deconstructs all of the creationist arguments about the age of the Earth - if, as you say, old and new can exist simultaneously, the existence of ‘new’ features such as Niagara falls, does not automatically make evidence of a young Earth; only a specific young feature. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/113 "2005-09-10T22:26:21Z")
More than that, it makes God out to be a liar. He did not simply create mature and immature forms at Creation: he specifically created rocks that would have all the evidence indicating that they were older than they are; he created light emanating from stars that were too far away to be seen, placing the light within 6,000 years of earth to fool the people who saw it even though the stars are more than 6,000 light-years away; he arranged for fossils to be buried in layers so that each higher level would contain examples of species that more closely resembled existing species in a manner to trick people into believing that species evolved over time. Now, my God is not Loki or Coyote, so I am disinclined to accept the “God was just pulling our legs” meme, but I guess it makes some people happier to know that God is going to try to trick us into not believing in Him. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/114 "2005-09-10T22:56:14Z")
Quite; it’s as deep as you like; not only do we find that, in mocking up ‘maturity’ in multi-mllion year-old sedimentary rocks, God found it necessary to include ersatz fossils of creatures, but he also found it necessary to create them looking as if they’d been eating each other. so not only are both the icthyosaur and the ammonite _never exist as living organisms, except in the imagination of God_, but the icthyosaur bite-mark on the shell of the ammonite represents an entirely imaginary conflict between these non-existent creatures. That’s just fraudulent, whichever way you slice it. It’s easy to argue that a newly-created apple tree would have to appear mature in order to produce fruit, but even if true, that’s an entirely different scale of fakery as would be creating entire bogus fossil ecosystems, genealogies etc, of organisms, in rocks that will function just as well without them. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/115 "2005-09-10T23:09:33Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Jesus was speaking of the generation which saw the particular sign(s) under discusssion not the generation He was speaking to. > > Jesus addressed the end times in detail in Matthew ch 24 and Luke ch 21 and likened it to birth pains which increase in intensity and frequency. Each generation experiences the same type of problems, but they increase to involve the entire world in the end times. The warning of Luke21:34-36 should be heeded by all generations, but especially the last generation, “But take heed to yourselves and be on your guard lest your hearts be overburdened and depressed with self indulgence, drunkenness, and worldly worries and cares, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap or a noose; For it will come upon all who live upon the face of the entire earth. Keep awake then an watch at all times, praying that you may have the full strength and ability and be accounted worthy to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of man.” > Peter summarizes the delayed return of Christ in 2Peter3:9, “The Lord is not slow about what He promises (ie, His return) according to some people’s conception of slowness, but He is longsuffering toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance.” Thus, His delayed return is for the purpose of bringing as many as possible into the kingdom of God. > I don’t think you can consider the forces at work in the world right now and expect things to ever be stable again, conditions are ripe for further violent social eruptions not to mention increased physical calamities. We’re on the Titanic, and the only good news is that Christ promises that He will return with His kingdom following the troublesome times. > > Zechariah 12:10 prophesies that the nation of Israel will recognize Christ as their Messiah at the end. And this long scripture lesson bears upon ID, the subject of the OP, how? [/QUOTE] I don’t have the slightest idea what happened but I didn’t post this. At least I didn’t knowingly post it. I think it’s a **monavis** post from up the thread somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/116 "2005-09-10T23:09:54Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > And your series of long scripture lessons bears upon ID, the subject of the OP, how? They were responses to arguments used in the thread, hence legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/117 "2005-09-10T23:19:03Z")
> [@Bible man](#): > > I have never been known to stray from the right path. 🙂 You might keep Proverbs 16:18 in mind. > [@clairobscur](#): > > > [@David Simmons](#): > > > > And your series of long scripture lessons bears upon ID, the subject of the OP, how? > > They were responses to arguments used in the thread, hence legitimate. If you say so, but I don’t see it myself. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/118 "2005-09-10T23:27:34Z")
> [@Bible man](#): > > The Intelligent Design\Old Earth proponents have made … inroads by … demonstrate the statistical impossibility that complex organisms and systems could come into existence by chance. Statistics doesn’t demostrate impossibility. It is not a legimate use of probablility and statistics to claim that an exceedingly low probablility for an event that has alread happened means that it must have had a supernatural origin. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2005, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/119 "2005-09-10T23:53:43Z")
> [@Bible man](#): > > You have summed up the problems exactly. The science we have been using is sufficient to examine natural processes but fails in its examination of the supernatural, but only because it refuses to bend. The Biblical account reports that a supernatural event undertaken by an Omnipotent and Sovereign Being was the beginning point of the physical realm. If science refuses to acknowledge that truth and keeps embracing theories which even oppose it, it not only ceases to be a force for good but becomes destructive. If science can’t find a way to yield itself to the truth, what good is it? The ID camp is coming up with some fascinating presentations that show how science can cooperate with the supernatural in a very convincing way. As more progress is made, the Darwin camp is going to start shrinking geometrically. Hold on there, Haus. Science doesn’t “fail” to examine the supernatural-- it cannot do so by its very definition. You are trying to marry science and faith by declaring the Bible to contain “truth” that science must accept. On what basis do you assert that the Bible contains “truth”? In fact it is faith that fails us in the realm of science. Science has no starting place in terms of facts. It discovers what is, and nothing more. By claiming the Bible as the starting point, you aren’t doing science, your engaged in faith. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986/120 "2005-09-11T07:06:19Z")
Hey, **Bible man**. Whassamatta Xtian? Xciat got your tongue? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-intelligent-design-account-for/319986.md?page=7)