# How does one address a 'Sir'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 21, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660 "2009-10-21T21:09:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/21 "2009-10-21T23:34:32Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > Really? No obligation in the UK to recognize a UK Knighthood? (OK, I don’t usually do this…) Could you offer a cite please? A cite for what? A law requiring people to call knights “Sir”? Unless the OP is addressing this hypothetical knight at the House of Lords, or announcing his arrival at a state function, in which case I’m sure there’s something in the Precedence Act or the Acts of Union which governs the matter, it’s laughable to think that anyone could be arrested and hauled before a court of law simply for refusing to address or refer to someone by the customary title of an Order of Chivalry. I’m afraid that if you want a cite you’ll have to find it yourself; the onus isn’t upon me to prove the absence of a law. > [@](#): > > Well yes, you _can_… and you can call a Doctor “Mr/Ms. Lastname” too and if you meet the Queen you can call her “Mrs. Windsor”… but it doesn’t make it correct does it? In such cases correctness will vary according to the observer. There’s no single objective source of truth when it comes to social customs. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/22 "2009-10-21T23:51:04Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > What if the person goes by a stage name? Is it “Sir Elton” or “Sir Reginald,” for instance? If knighthood was ever in the offing, would it be Sir Barry or Sir Edna? Or Sir Dame Edna? > > Worst-case scenario: What if the Queen wanted to honor Sting? Ringo Starr’s legal name being still Richard Starkey, if knighted he would be “Sir Richard” and properly addressed as such. “Sir Ringo” would be offensively cutesy. In the case of the man born Reginald Dwight, he changed his legal name by deed poll to Elton Hercules John, so “Sir Elton” would be completely proper – in fact, the one correct way to address him according to etiquette. “Dame Edna Everage” is a character played out in public appearances by Barry Humphries. and if the Queen (rumored to be a fan of Dame Edna) decided to honor him, he would be “Sir Barry” when himself, and of course “Dame Edna” when appearing as the character, with interviewer playing out the charade of the role. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/23 "2009-10-21T23:57:00Z")
“Ringo” is just as much his legal name as “Richard” is. In common law countries it’s generally permitted to call yourself whatever you want so long as it isn’t done for fraudulent purposes. Which name or names appears on his various legal and identifying documents is anyone’s guess; I wouldn’t be surprised if he had some ID documents which referred to him as Ringo Starr and some as Richard Starkey. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/24 "2009-10-22T01:38:18Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Insisting to be called by a particular given name is quite different to insisting that people use a particular honorific. Would you honestly consider yourself to be “extraordinarily rude” if you refused to address me as “His Most Serene and Holy Majesty, Psychonaut the Great, Herder of the Magnificent Mustelids and Annoyer of Candymen”? I think that if I were to insist on such a form of address, most people would think nothing of unapologetically laughing in my face. It’s only classist tradition that permits royalty and nobility (and to a lesser extent, those with whom they wish to associate themselves via knighthood) to get away with that sort of thing. In that example, though, you’re obviously being ridiculous. A knighted person isn’t being ridiculous. Rudeness is about reasonability; it would be unreasonable for you to insist on my calling you “His Most Serene and Holy Majesty, Psychonaut the Great, Herder of the Magnificent Mustelids and Annoyer of Candymen” but, had you been knighted, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to insist on being called “Sir Psychonaut”. It’s really just about manners and levels of what is reasonable. For example, if someone from another culture refused to call President Obama anything but his first name, would that be considered impolite? Or someone from a country which doesn’t use the “Doctor” honorific (other than Gallifrey…) refusing to do so to a doctor who preferred to be addressed as such? Or what if I decide I think the “Ms.” title to be silly, and insist on “Miss” or “Mrs” despite their obvious desire to be called “Ms.”? What if I came from a culture which had no such designation? Or - in short - what’s wrong with other cultures having manners of address different to your own, and what’s so wrong with doing so when speaking to someone of that culture? It costs you nothing, and it’s polite. Nobody is forcing you to do it, obviously, but I feel that choosing to do it is a reasonable and polite choice, and that choosing not to without good reason is fairly uncivil. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/25 "2009-10-22T02:00:41Z")
I used to work with a young guy who was Lord Something of Somewhere. We used to call him Kev. Or Kevin if we were being formal. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/26 "2009-10-22T02:29:38Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > You’re under no obligation to recognize knighthoods. I would address people who have received them the same way I would address anyone else — by their first name alone, as “Mr./Ms. Lastname”, or as plain old “sir/madam”, depending on the circumstances, and whether I knew their first or last names. So if someone happened to introduce you to Sir Elton John, as in “Psychonaut, I like you to met Sir Elton John” you would resond with “Hello Elton”? or “Pleased to meet you Mr John”? Really? If so, I would find that incredibly rude and insulting, even deliberately antagonistic and trying too hard to prove some sort of meaningless point… Would it make any differ I did know a couple of genuine knights - if I knew them personally of course I would just address them by name, if meeting for the first time I would invaribly use the correct honorific. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/27 "2009-10-22T02:38:43Z")
According to Mark Hamill, when they were filming the first _Star Wars_ movie, he first started calling Sir Alec Guinness “Sir Alec”, and eventually Guinness slapped him lightly on the cheek and said, “My dear boy, I’d like to be called by my name, not my accolade.” ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/28 "2009-10-22T03:28:57Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And, of course, “sir” is a perfectly acceptable thing to call a man. > > [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sir](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sir) It has different connotations in Australia, which is where the OP is from. We do not use “Sir” commonly like Americans do. It is not used except by grovelling salesmen, or in situations of extreme formality or forced politeness. Many people in Australia think of the term as being one associated with English class deference and consider its use unaustralian and don’t like people using it at them. I know it isn’t used or thought of in that way in the States. Don’t be too quick to assume that the man in the OP was being an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/29 "2009-10-22T03:49:49Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > It has different connotations in Australia, which is where the OP is from. We do not use “Sir” commonly like Americans do. It is not used except by grovelling salesmen, or in situations of extreme formality or forced politeness. Many people in Australia think of the term as being one associated with English class deference and consider its use unaustralian and don’t like people using it at them. I know it isn’t used or thought of in that way in the States. Don’t be too quick to assume that the man in the OP was being an asshole. Hmmm… I didn’t know that NZ and Oz culture was so far apart - I used it almost constantly when I worked any sort of customer service role - and I was never a “grovelling salesman” Of course, some people responded with “just call me John” - but that was only the regulars and served as an introduction ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/30 "2009-10-22T04:44:47Z")
I think it is becoming more common through American influence, and in “robotic” formalised customer service in particular. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/31 "2009-10-22T06:35:22Z")
[QUOTE=Tom Tildrum] Worst-case scenario: What if the Queen wanted to honor Sting? [/QUOTE] We’d question her judgment. 😃 He’d be Sir Gordon, but there’s a big fat BUT there. Sting’s real name is Gordon Matthew Thomas Sumner, CBE. The CBE denotes that he is a Commander of the Order of the British Empire. This rank does not automatically confer the honorific of Sir or Dame, so to properly call him Sir Gordon, his rank ought to be elevated to Knight Commander (KBE) or Grand Knight Cross (GBE). ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/32 "2009-10-22T07:40:43Z")
The rule is simple. Consder Sir John Smith: - In any circumstance where you would call him, or refer to him as, “Mr Smith” if he were not a knight, you call him “Sir John”. - In any circumstance where you would refer to him as “John Smith”, you call him “Sir John Smith”. - In any circumstance where you would use just “Smith”, you still use “Smith”. - In any circumsance where you would use “John”, you still use “John”. - In any circumstance where you would use “sir”, you still use “sir”. As others have pointed out, there are Anglo/American dimensions too. I don’t think just “Smith” wouild be used in many contexts in the US, and certainly not as a form of address. Conversely “sir” on its own is common in the US, but not so much elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/33 "2009-10-22T09:16:02Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I think it is becoming more common through American influence, and in “robotic” formalised customer service in particular. I remember the first time I was called “sir”, I was about 12 years old and traveling with a friend on an Air New Zealand flight from Dunedin to Palmerston North. The hostesses called us both sir, we were chuffed and felt very grown up. I occasionally hear “sir” from Air Traffic Controllers on the radio and sometimes at the more expensive restaurants, but I agree it is not common, on the other hand I feel it’s common enough that complaining about it in anything other than a lighthearted manner is a bit rude. What I dislike from grovelling salesmen is over familiarity. For example finding out your name is Jonathan and immediately calling you Jon. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/34 "2009-10-22T09:36:42Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > A cite for what? A law requiring people to call knights “Sir”? No. You stated that there was “no obligation to \*\*recognize \*\*knighthoods” (bolding mine). I agreed that you \*could \*call the hypothetical Knight _Mr_ Smith (and suggested it would be rude – but never claimed you couldn’t do it). But if you are going to claim that you don’t have to recognize an honour granted by the Crown (and noting your location of London) then a cite would be nice. To clarify: if someone is granted a doctorate by an accredited institution then they have a doctorate. You don’t have to call them _Doctor_, but you can’t just claim the the degree doesn’t have to be recognized. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/35 "2009-10-22T09:47:36Z")
The senior director at my (UK) firm is Lord Pxxxxx Cxxxxx, Baron of Such-and-Such. He’s always “Pxxxxx” in the office, and is only Lord Cxxxxx on official documents. If I met him in the corridor or had to present a report it would always be “Good morning, Pxxxxx”, and it would be very odd for anyone in the firm (except perhaps our receptionist) to use “Lord Cxxxxx”. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/36 "2009-10-22T11:11:11Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > According to Mark Hamill, when they were filming the first _Star Wars_ movie, he first started calling Sir Alec Guinness “Sir Alec”, and eventually Guinness slapped him lightly on the cheek and said, “My dear boy, I’d like to be called by my name, not my accolade.” Compare and contrast Sir Ben Kingsley (born Krishna Bhanji) who reportedly gets somewhat agitated if his accolade is omitted when being addresed. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/37 "2009-10-22T11:45:49Z")
Here, at any rate, refusal to use it (the Sir) especially to a stranger, is just plain deliberate rudeness, unless the person in question has specifically asked you to drop it. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/38 "2009-10-22T13:15:04Z")
I’ve had dealings with one knight, I called him… “Tim.” ---
**Author:** ![Daerlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Daerlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daerlyn)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/39 "2009-10-22T13:29:47Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > It has different connotations in Australia, which is where the OP is from. We do not use “Sir” commonly like Americans do. It is not used except by grovelling salesmen, or in situations of extreme formality or forced politeness. Many people in Australia think of the term as being one associated with English class deference and consider its use unaustralian and don’t like people using it at them. I know it isn’t used or thought of in that way in the States. Don’t be too quick to assume that the man in the OP was being an asshole. I’m curious about what Australians use in place of ‘sir’ in semi-formal interactions. I (in Canada) use it almost daily with customers and occasionally even with family members (mostly when my dad decides to get uppity, and it’s usually accompanied by an eye-roll and a chuckle). Do you just call people ‘Mr. Whatever’ every other sentence? ---
**Author:** ![pan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e495f1/32.png) [@pan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pan1)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660/40 "2009-10-22T13:32:20Z")
> [@HawksPath](#): > > It depends what country you’re in and where the person was knighted. If you live in the U.S. we don’t officially recognize royalty and thus you could call the knight McKermit, “Mr. McKermit”. This is completely false. In the USA we DO recognize foreign titles for foreign citizens out of simple respect. US Citizens, on the other hand, have different rules according to the Constitution: No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State." Clearly foriegn nobility is recognized (last sentence). US Citizens, on the other hand cannot receive titles of nobility from foreign state and we won’t be giving any out. Americans have in the past recieved honorary knighthoods to circumvent this Constitutional Law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-address-a-sir/514660.md?page=3)