# How does one determine the intelligence of trees? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 28, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268 "2014-07-28T18:54:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/41 "2014-07-29T17:29:12Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > :dubious: Among whom or what? Excluding humans, that is. I need food to survive. The food is over there. a) Go over there. b) Purple rainbows. c) Dance like a dervish. I think you will find that only one of these is an effective strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/42 "2014-07-29T17:35:07Z")
I think I shall never see a tree As smart as me. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/43 "2014-07-29T17:38:46Z")
Even if you take the collective intelligence of a group they are not very bright. Despite this, they can be successful. To support this I offer the documentary film “Forest Gump”. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/44 "2014-07-29T23:38:02Z")
Of course trees are smart. Ever hear of one getting lost? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/45 "2014-07-29T23:41:13Z")
They can always see what side of themselves the moss is growing on. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/46 "2014-07-30T00:21:21Z")
“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.” –Jack Handy ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/47 "2014-07-30T00:54:19Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > :dubious: Among whom or what? Excluding humans, that is. Spock! ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/48 "2014-07-30T00:58:20Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Of course trees are smart. Ever hear of one getting lost? Im my town there was a park officially called Lost Tree Park. as kids we used to joke about finding the poor lost tree, and getting her back to her mommy. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/49 "2014-07-30T01:33:22Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I need food to survive. The food is over there. > > a) Go over there. > b) Purple rainbows. > c) Dance like a dervish. > > I think you will find that only one of these is an effective strategy. I don’t think “logic” means what you think it means. In any case, by this definition a paramecium is logical and therefore intelligent. ---
**Author:** ![ALOHA\_HATER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@ALOHA\_HATER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ALOHA_HATER)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/50 "2014-07-30T02:50:52Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Not to mention an anthill. Any individual ant has the mental capability of an . . . um . . . ant. But collectively, could you say an ant colony is “intelligent”? If so, how would you communicate with it? Excellent example. An ant colony could be argued to be intelligent. It could be considered sentient if it were able to communicate with not us but another ant colony. That would only be possible if the number of ants in a colony were closer to the number of neurons in our brain. Remember, our intelligence springs forth from a pile of shit–the building blocks of our brains and bodies are dumb. Those building blocks are marginally reactive. Marginal reactiveness builds complexity through interaction and sheer scale. For fun, imagine a “humanhill” where people cooperate as well as ants do. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/51 "2014-07-30T03:27:41Z")
I define intelligence as “Developing/Adopting a new solution that increases the survival chances of an individual.” By new, I mean the individual does it for the first time in its entire species : i.e. the solution is not learnt through genes being passed over or by observing other members of the same species. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/52 "2014-07-30T05:27:25Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I don’t think “logic” means what you think it means. In any case, by this definition a paramecium is logical and therefore intelligent. Only logic works in a causal universe, hence evolution selects for logical behaviors. Any being which is intelligent will have to interact with a causal universe and behave, to at least some extent, in a logical manner. There may well be parts of its manner that seem arbitrary and meaningless to us, but anything which we could communicate with at a meaningful level will have developed the ability to think logically, and hence gives us a workable base to start communication with them. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/53 "2014-07-30T14:51:27Z")
Wood a tree know it’s intelligent? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/54 "2014-08-02T22:53:30Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > I define intelligence as “Developing/Adopting a new solution that increases the survival chances of an individual.” By new, I mean the individual does it for the first time in its entire species : i.e. the solution is not learnt through genes being passed over or by observing other members of the same species. Not bad but that would require we prove that a solution has never been applied before and human performance on standardied tests (in which others have also answered the same questions) would not count as intelligent behavior. This is an excellent question for precisely the reasons discussed early on: it forces us to struggle with defining intelligence other than merely thinking like we think. Clearly trees have behavior, on a slower time scale than we respond and react, but changes in environment leads to changes in behavior. What defines intelligent behavior and how will we know a truely alien intelligence when we meet it? I still maintain that intelligence is the degree to which an entity (be it an individual or a meta-organism, such as a bee hive or an ant colony or a society) is able to solve novel problems of salience. Such can be restricted to broad or very narrow domains. Then the issue is how to define “novel” I guess, but the intent is to exlude fixed action responses from qualifying as intelligence. Does the long term behavior of trees qualify as intelligent in a very narrow domain? I am not sure. Not sure if there is a GQ answer … ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/55 "2014-08-05T19:44:24Z")
Her is a recently published book that may be relevant: [How Forests Think: Toward an Anthropology Beyond the Human.](http://www.amazon.com/How-Forests-Think-Toward-Anthropology/dp/0520276116/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407267602&sr=1-1&keywords=how+forests+think) ---
**Author:** ![bppubjr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@bppubjr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bppubjr)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/56 "2014-08-14T14:57:28Z")
Perhaps intelligence can be defined as the level of sophistication of a given system’s response to stimulus, the size of its decision tree, if you will. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/57 "2014-08-14T15:00:43Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Her is a recently published book that may be relevant: [How Forests Think: Toward an Anthropology Beyond the Human.](http://www.amazon.com/How-Forests-Think-Toward-Anthropology/dp/0520276116/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407267602&sr=1-1&keywords=how+forests+think) And it’s printed on paper. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/58 "2014-08-14T15:39:50Z")
> [@bppubjr](#): > > Perhaps intelligence can be defined as the level of sophistication of a given system’s response to stimulus, the size of its decision tree, if you will. :rolleyes: leave the punny humor out of this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268/59 "2014-08-14T15:58:23Z")
I don’t remember if he discusses trees, but neurosurgeon Frank Vertosick argues that lots of things meet his functional definition of intelligence, including bacteria, in [The Genius Within: Discovering the Intelligence of Every Living Thing](http://www.amazon.com/The-Genius-Within-Discovering-Intelligence/dp/0151005516). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-determine-the-intelligence-of-trees/694268.md?page=2)