# How does one speak Ebonics **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 7, 1999, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458 "1999-12-07T06:12:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/1 "1999-12-07T06:12:00Z")
I did a _Google_ search on the subject but all I could find were articles about the controversy (sp??). What does it mean to speak it? I know the verb be is used as in I be, you be, he be, she be. But what else for example. Am You home? Etc. But what qualifies as Ebonics. Is there a link that describes this other than just relating to the issue of whether or not it is a subject to be taught in school? ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_Bowe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@Doug\_Bowe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_Bowe)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/2 "1999-12-07T06:50:00Z")
Are you asking is this slang, pidgin or creole? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/3 "1999-12-07T07:14:00Z")
Ebonics is just a euphamism for “Inner-city dialect spoken by people who failed English class in school”. Consider the heavy use of the _to be_ verb. Now think about how the cliche pirate in a movie or cartoon talks. What some call a dialect is really just poor diction. I have known several well-educated blacks, and they DO NOT speak “ebonics”. ---
**Author:** ![NITWATCH2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@NITWATCH2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NITWATCH2)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/4 "1999-12-07T07:20:00Z")
Ebonics? That is just a very bad idea by some Black professor to elevate the self image of poor Black kids who haven’t learned much more than slang by explaining things to them in more slang. Years and years back, there was Jive, something I’m not even going to try to explain, but it was mainly spoken by Blacks who were ‘cool’ and was so hard to understand that it died out around the 70s. I know many well educated Black men and women who speak better english than I do and if you close your eyes, you cannot tell if the person speaking is Black or White. * * * The Night Watch always knows things. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/5 "1999-12-07T07:23:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I know many well educated Black men and women who speak better english than I do and if you close your eyes, you cannot tell if the person speaking is Black or White. Let’s not get into the “sounding black” debate, please. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/6 "1999-12-07T13:20:00Z")
So basically it would be like the movie Airplane, when Mrs. Cleaver was speakin’ Jive. ---
**Author:** ![JoltSucker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@JoltSucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoltSucker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/7 "1999-12-07T13:33:00Z")
Despite the public thrashing Ebonics has taken, I wanted to point out that it is a linguistically valid dialect with a consistent grammatical structure. Argue all you want about whether or not it should be taught in the schools, or whether it was glorified just to boost folks’ self-image if you want. But make no mistake, it is a real dialect - it was not “invented” by anybody with an agenda. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/8 "1999-12-07T13:38:00Z")
Diceman, of course, speaks nothing but the Absolute 100% Eternally Approved Version of God’s Holy English Language Handed Down from the Heavens and Unchanging for Ever and Ever, Amen. He also, of course, doesn’t have the slightest idea what he’s talking about. Anyone ever notice that no other English regional/cultural dialect attracts nearly as much stupidity, venom and uninformed speculation as AAVE/Ebonics? Hmmm . . . wonder why that is? Anyone notice that the same buffoons who spew that stupidity and venom also rarely speak or write in formal, standard English? Hmmm . . . wonder why that is? Quoting from [http://www.cal.org/ebonics/wolfram.htm](http://www.cal.org/ebonics/wolfram.htm) (emphasis mine):“a. The variety known as “Ebonics,” “African American Vernacular English” (AAVE), and “Vernacular Black English” and by other names **is systematic and rule-governed like all natural speech varieties. In fact, all human linguistic systems–spoken, signed, and written–are fundamentally regular. The systematic and expressive nature of the grammar and pronunciation patterns of the African American vernacular has been established by numerous scientific studies over the past thirty years.** Characterizations of Ebonics as “slang,” “mutant,”“lazy,” “defective,” “ungrammatical,” or"broken English” are incorrect and demeaning. b. The distinction between “languages” and “dialects” is usually made more on social and political grounds than on purely linguistic ones. For example, different varieties of Chinese are popularly regarded as “dialects,“though their speakers cannot understand each other, but speakers of Swedish and Norwegian, which are regarded as separate “languages,” generally understand each other. \*\*What is important from a linguistic and educational point of view is not whether AAVE is called a “language” or a"dialect” but rather that its systematicity be recognized. \*\*” Farther down: “The form be in African American Vernacular English refers to an action that takes place lots of times. It does not usually refer to an action that takes place only once. This is the reason that be sounds better in a sentence like “They usually be tired when they come home” than it does in a sentence like “They be tired right now.” In the following sentences,this dialect pattern is shown in italics, along with responses from a sample of African American sixth grade children.” (Page goes on the show the OVERWHELMINGLY consistent application of the rule.) Elsewhere, we find:"(1) Some participants in this debate think that AAVE is merely an imperfectly learned approximation to real English, differing from it because the speakers are careless and lazy and don’t follow “the rules.” It is “dialect,” in the deprecating use of that word, or “slang.” (2) To most linguists AAVE is one of the dialects of American English, historically most closely related to forms of Southern speech but with differences attributable both to the linguistic history of slaves and to generations of social isolation. (For a linguist, to describe something as a dialect is not to say that it is inferior; everybody speaks a dialect.) (3) And some people say that while AAVE has the superficial trappings of English, at its structural core it is a continuation or amalgam of one or more west African languages. The views summarized in (1) are simply wrong. The difference between the views identified in (2) and (3) is irrelevant to the issue the board is trying to face. . . . But on the question of whether there is a definable linguistic system, spoken by many African Americans, with its own phonology, lexicon and grammar (and dialects!), there is already a huge body of research. (For a useful bibliography see the web site [http://www2.colgate.edu/diw/SOAN244bibs.html](http://www2.colgate.edu/diw/SOAN244bibs.html) .) The question of whether twenty-seven thousand African American children in Oakland schools come from families that speak that language has to be an empirical question, not an issue for tapping people’s opinions." I also urge you to check out [http://www.umass.edu/aae/disserts.htm](http://www.umass.edu/aae/disserts.htm) and [http://linguist.emich.edu/topics/ebonics/](http://linguist.emich.edu/topics/ebonics/) . They will provide you with much better information than, well, people who just don’t have a clue. * * * "I prefer shows of the genre, _“World’s Blankiest Blank.”_ ---
**Author:** ![MrSCOTT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@MrSCOTT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrSCOTT)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/9 "1999-12-07T14:40:00Z")
HAHAHA! Y’all trippin. pldennison pretty much laid it all out though, so no need for me to be redundant. -MrSCOTT, an educated black. ---
**Author:** ![KissThis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/cab0a1/32.png) [@KissThis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KissThis)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/10 "1999-12-07T14:44:00Z")
Ebonics=substandard english * * * I’m the best there is Fats…even if you beat me, I’m still the best. Paul Newman in the Hustler ---
**Author:** ![MrSCOTT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@MrSCOTT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrSCOTT)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/11 "1999-12-07T14:46:00Z")
KissThis said… “Ebonics=substandard english” Well so is American English, by that definition. So what’s your point? -MrSCOTT ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/12 "1999-12-07T14:47:00Z")
\<\\> Check out Gullah. Terminally nifty dialect. * * * Uke ---
**Author:** ![KissThis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/cab0a1/32.png) [@KissThis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KissThis)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/13 "1999-12-07T14:51:00Z")
Substandard english as taught in our educational system today… * * * I’m the best there is Fats…even if you beat me, I’m still the best. Paul Newman in the Hustler ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/14 "1999-12-07T15:03:00Z")
This isn’t some invitation to resurrect “Smackmouth Sweetness,” or whatever his name was, is it??? ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/15 "1999-12-07T17:17:00Z")
The question was: “What does it mean to speak it?” Frankly mon, I haven’t a clue. Other than it means you know, ebonics, which comes from ‘ebon’ = ebony, which is a tree. So you speak tree. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 1999, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/16 "1999-12-08T06:18:00Z")
And here, for the sake of comparitive science, is this thread in Ebonics: Audo’ Topic, dig dis: How duz one rap Ebonics ## Markxxx Member posted 12-07-1999 12:12 AM I dun did some Google search on de subject but all ah’ could find wuz articles about da damn controversy (sp??). Whut duz it mean t’rap it? I know de verb be be used as in ah’ be, ya’ be, he be, she be. But whut else fo’ ‘esample. Am You’s crib? Etc. Co’ got d’ beat! But whut qualifies as Ebonics. Is dere some link dat describes dis oda’ dan plum relatin’ t’de issue uh wheda’ o’ not it be a subject t’be taught in farm? ## Doug Bowe Member posted 12-07-1999 12:50 AM Is you ax’in’ be dis slang, pidgin o’ creole? ## Diceman Member posted 12-07-1999 01:14 AM Ebonics be plum a euphamism fo’ “Inner-city dialect rapped by sucka’s who failed English class in farm”. Consida’ de heavy use uh de to be verb. Co’ got d’ beat! Now dink about how de cliche pirate in some movie o’ cartoon raps. Whut some call some dialect be real plum poo’ dicshun. ah’ have knode several well-educated brothers, and dey DO NOT rap “ebonics”. ## NITWATCH2 Member posted 12-07-1999 01:20 AM Ebonics? Dat be plum a real baaaad idea by some Black super honcho t’elevate da damn self image uh poo’ Black kids who gotsn’t learned much mo’e dan slang by ‘esplainin’ doodads t’dem in mo’e slang. What it is, Mama! Years and years back, dere wuz JIBE, sump’n I’m not even goin’ t’try t’‘splain, but it wuz mainly rapped by Blacks who wuz ‘waaay coo’’ and wuz so’s hard t’dig it dat it got wasted out around da damn 70s. I know many well educated Black dudes and honky chicks who rap betta’ english dan ah’ do and if ya’ close yo’ eyes, ya’ kinnot tell if de sucka’ rappin’ be Black o’ Honky. * * * De Night Watch always knows doodads. ## Diceman Member posted 12-07-1999 01:23 AM ## quote, dig dis: ## I know many well educated Black dudes and honky chicks who rap betta’ english dan ah’ do and if ya’ close yo’ eyes, ya’ kinnot tell if de sucka’ rappin’ be Black o’ Honky. Let’s not dig into de “soundin’ brother” debate, please. ## Markxxx Member posted 12-07-1999 07:20 AM So’s basically it would be likes de movie Airplane, when Mrs. Cleava’ wuz rapin’ JIBE. ## JoltSucker Member posted 12-07-1999 07:33 AM Despite da damn public drashin’ Ebonics gots snatchn, ah’ wants’ed t’point out dat it be a lin’uistically valid dialect wid some consistent grammatical structure. Argue all ya’ wants’ about wheda’ o’ not it should be taught in de farms, o’ wheda’ it wuz glo’ified plum to boost folks’ self-image if ya’ wants’. But make no missnatch, it be a real dialect - it wuz not “invented” by any fool wid an agenda. WORD! ## pldennison Member posted 12-07-1999 07:38 AM Diceman, uh course, raps nodin’ but da damn Absolute 100% Eternally Approved Version uh God’s Holy English Language Handed Waaay down fum de Heavens and Unchangin’ fo’ Eva’ and Ever, Amen. ‘S coo’, bro. He also, uh course, duzn’t gots de slightest idea whut he’s rapin’ about. Man! Any sucka eva’ notice dat no oda’ English regional/cultural dialect attracts nearly as much stupidity, venom and uninfo’med speculashun as AAVE/Ebonics? Hmmm . . . wonda’ why dat is? Any sucka notice dat da damn same buffoons who spew dat stupidity and venom also rarely rap o’ scribble in fo’mal, standard English? Hmmm . . . wonda’ why dat is? Quotin’ fum http, dig dis://www, so cut me some slack, Jack.cal.o’g/ebonics/wolfram. WORD!htm (emphasis mine):"a. WORD! De variety knode as “Ebonics,” “African American Vernacular English” (AAVE), and “Vernacular Black English” and by oda’ dojiggers is systematic and rule-governed likes all natural speech varieties. In fact, all human lin’uistic systems–rapped, signed, and written–are fundamentally regular. Ah be baaad… De systematic and ‘espressive nature uh de grammar and pronunciashun patterns uh de African American vernacular gots been established by numerous scientific studies over de past dirty years. Characterizashuns uh Ebonics as “slang,” “mutant,”“lazy,” “defective,” “ungrammatical,” o’“bugger’d English” is inco’rect and demeanin’. b. Co’ got d’ beat! De distincshun between “languages” and “dialects” be usually made mo’e on social and political grounds dan on purely lin’uistic ones. Fo’ ‘esample, different varieties uh Chinese is popularly regarded as "dialects,"dough deir rapers kinnot dig it each oder, but rapers uh Swedish and No’wegian, which is regarded as separate “languages,” generally dig it each oder. Ah be baaad… Whut be impo’tant fum some lin’uistic and educashunal point uh view be not wheda’ AAVE be called some “language” o’ a"dialect" but rada’ dat its systematicity be recognized. " Farda’ waaay down: “De fo’m be in African American Vernacular English refers t’an acshun dat snatch’d place lots uh times. It duz not usually refa’ to an acshun dat snatch’d place only once. Dis be de reason dat be sounds betta’ in some sentence likes “Dey usually be tired when dey mosey on down crib” dan it duz in some sentence likes “Dey be tired right now, so cut me some slack, Jack.” In de followin’ sentences,dis dialect pattern be shown in italics, along wid responses fum some sample uh African American sixd grade children. ‘S coo’, bro.” (Page goes on de show de OVERWHELMINGLY consistent applicashun uh de rule.) Elsewhere, we find, dig dis:"(1) Some participants in dis debate dink dat AAVE be merely an impuh’fectly learned approximashun t’real English, differin’ from it cuz’ de rapers is careless and lazy and duzn’t follow “de rules.” It be “dialect,” in de deprecatin’ use uh dat wo’d, o’ “slang. What it is, Mama!” (2) To most lin’uists AAVE be one uh de dialects uh American English, histo’ically most closely related t’fo’ms uh Soudern speech but wid differences attributable bod t’de lin’uistic histo’y uh slaves and t’generashuns uh social isolashun. (Fo’ a lin’uist, t’describe sump’n as some dialect be not t’say dat it be inferio’; everybody raps some dialect. Man!) (3) And some sucka’s say dat while AAVE gots de supuh’ficial trappin’s uh English, at its structural co’e it be a continuashun o’ amalgam uh one o’ mo’e west African languages. De views summarized in (1) is simply wrong. What it is, Mama! De difference between de views identified in (2) and (3) be irrelevant t’de issue da damn bo’d be tryin’ t’face. . . . But on de quesshun uh wheda’ dere be a definable lin’uistic system, rapped by many African Americans, wid its own phonology, lexicon and grammar (and dialects! Right on!), dere be already some huge body uh research. Lop some boogie. (Fo’ some useful bibliography see de web site http, dig dis://www2.colgate.edu/diw/SOAN244bibs.html .) De quesshun uh wheda’ twenty-seven dousand African American children in Oakland farms mosey on down from families dat rap dat language gots’ta be an empirical quesshun, not an issue fo’ tappin’ sucka’s’s opinions." I also urge ya’ t’check out http, dig dis://www, so cut me some slack, Jack.umass.edu/aae/disser ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/17 "1999-12-07T19:37:00Z")
Ah, PhilD. I’ve been wondering if you were still around the Board. As usual, you take up the Politically Correct line very faithfully. But don’t you find it a little odd that this “dialect” is only spoken by people with low levels of education? How may well-educated blacks can you think of that speak Ebonics? Why do Jessie Jackson, Colin Powel, Clarence Thomas, and others like them obtain a different dialect than other people from similar neighborhoods? Oh, and where did I say that I speak perfect English? You will search in vain for such a post (unless it was a joke), but at least I consistently conjugate my verbs. Your _attempts_ at personal attacks would be amusing, if they weren’t always so weak and groundless. * * * “I had a feeling that in Hell there would be mushrooms.” -The Secret of Monkey Island ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/18 "1999-12-07T20:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Ah, PhilD. I’ve been wondering if you were still around the Board. As usual, you take up the Politically Correct line very faithfully. Your complaint about “political correctness” might be slightly meaningful if I couldn’t instantly come up with a couple dozen professionals in the field of linguistics who could show you what a doofus you are. > [@](#): > > But don’t you find it a little odd that this > “dialect” is only spoken by people with low levels of education? Since it isn’t, no, I don’t. Although I assume that, since I was able to provide cites from scholarly works and journals in the relevant field, you have all sorts of facts and figures to back up this assertion of yours, right? No? That’s what I thought. It’s put-up-or-shut-up time–I’m giving you carte blanche to prove me wrong. > [@](#): > > How may well-educated > blacks can you think of that speak Ebonics? Let’s see . . . Oprah Winfrey, Sen. Carol Mosely Braun, Chuck D., Montel Williams, Cleveland Councilwoman Fannie Lewis . . . more than a few. > [@](#): > > Why do Jessie Jackson, Colin Powel, > Clarence Thomas, and others like them obtain a different dialect than other people from > similar neighborhoods? I suspect that Thomas and Jackson, at least, can slip in and out at will, depending on the company they’re in. So can a lot of blacks. > [@](#): > > You will search in vain for such a > post (unless it was a joke), but at least I consistently conjugate my verbs. So do Ebonics speakers, although I can assume that you didn’t read the link which showed that the “be” construction was overwhelmingly consistently applied in certain contexts, while the verb was perfectly conjugated in other contexts, and that people who speak it know the difference. So what other dialects don’t meet your cultural standards, Dice? Are you as offended by Cajun? Why not? Did you even read the material, or are you so overwhelmingly offended by other cultures that you can’t admit you were one-upped? I never fail to be amused by the oh-so-subtle racism that says that any number of white enclaves can have their own dialects, but blacks cannot. ---
**Author:** ![Nickrz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbce88/32.png) [@Nickrz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nickrz)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/19 "1999-12-07T20:17:00Z")
Sheeeee-it! How’d you DO that, Brian?! A classic, my gawd. Too funny for words. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458/20 "1999-12-07T20:32:00Z")
And incidentally: > [@](#): > > Why do Jessie Jackson, Colin Powel, > Clarence Thomas, and others like them obtain a different dialect than other > people from > similar neighborhoods? People in my own **immediate family** speak differently. I speak nothing like my sister does, and my mother sounds like she’s from the Deep South. Yet you take a sample of three and want to know why everyone they grew up with doesn’t speak the same? Brilliant. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-speak-ebonics/5458.md?page=2)