# How does one teach one's children how to lie? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2007, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843 "2007-10-15T21:55:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![blinkingblinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blinkingblinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkingblinking)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2007, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/1 "2007-10-15T21:55:28Z")
And when? Most superficial talk about teaching kids will always pay lip service to ‘honesty’. But people have to learn how to lie. Most studies say that most people lie about 20 times per day. You can get in trouble when you tell the truth. I missed out on a job once because I gave an honest answer to the ‘Where do you see yourself in 5 years?’ question. Obviously in society one has to know when to lie, how to lie. How does one teach that to one’s children? Or do we just assume they will pick it up without any specific teaching? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2007, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/2 "2007-10-15T21:57:25Z")
Teach them that if you must choose between being truthful and being kind, be kind. “Brutally honest” is honest, but its still brutal. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2007, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/3 "2007-10-15T22:02:09Z")
Same way they learn almost everything else - by observation. First day home from the hospital: “Honey, your mother’s on the phone. She wants to know how you and the baby are doing.” Sigh. “Ugh. Tell her I’m sleeping!” “Okay.” If, by some miracle, the child doesn’t see this and other small lies and deceptions (“Tell Mommy she looks so pretty with her new haircut!”, “Daddy’s the best golfer ever!” “Try the lettuce, honey, you’ll love it!”) every single day of her life, she’ll see them soon enough at school. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2007, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/4 "2007-10-15T22:04:15Z")
[QUOTE=blinkingblinking] Or do we just assume they will pick it up without any specific teaching? [/QUOTE] I’d say that’s a fair assumption. And Mark Twain agrees with me. Smart fella. [http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/mtwain/bl-mtwain-myfirstlie.htm](http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/mtwain/bl-mtwain-myfirstlie.htm) > [@](#): > > I do not remember my first lie, it is too far back; but I remember my second one very well. I was nine days old at the time, and had noticed that if a pin was sticking in me and I advertised it in the usual fashion, I was lovingly petted and coddled and pitied in a most agreeable way and got a ration between meals besides. > > It was human nature to want to get these riches, and I fell. I lied about the pin–advertising one when there wasn’t any. You would have done it; George Washington did it, anybody would have done it. During the first half of my life I never knew a child that was able to rise about that temptation and keep from telling that lie. Up to 1867 all the civilised children that were ever born into the world were liars-- including George. Then the safety-pin came in and blocked the game. But is that reform worth anything? No; for it is reform by force and has no virtue in it; it merely stops that form of lying, it doesn’t impair the disposition to lie, by a shade. It is the cradle application of conversion by fire and sword, or of the temperance principle through prohibition. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2007, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/5 "2007-10-15T22:05:53Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] “Brutally honest” is honest, but its still brutal. [/QUOTE] Amen! One of the worst things to come out of the 70s was the insistence by some people to tell the truth, no matter who they hurt, because they were “keeping it real.” :rolleyes: I believe most if not all of them were closet sadists who were glad for the excuse. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2007, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/6 "2007-10-15T23:37:17Z")
[QUOTE=blinkingblinking] And when? Most superficial talk about teaching kids will always pay lip service to ‘honesty’. But people have to learn how to lie. Most studies say that most people lie about 20 times per day. You can get in trouble when you tell the truth. I missed out on a job once because I gave an honest answer to the ‘Where do you see yourself in 5 years?’ question. Obviously in society one has to know when to lie, how to lie. How does one teach that to one’s children? Or do we just assume they will pick it up without any specific teaching? [/QUOTE] It may in fact be the case that everyone lies at some times; I won’t pass judgement on that. But nonetheless I don’t doubt that kids taught to tell the truth are at a significant advantage over those taught to lie regularly and without scruples. A solid foundation of honesty may cost someone a few opportunities but in will eventually gain them many more. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/7 "2007-10-16T00:48:33Z")
[QUOTE=blinkingblinking] Most studies say that most people lie about 20 times per day. [/QUOTE] How do you know the people who did the studies weren’t lying? 😃 > [@](#): > > You can get in trouble when you tell the truth. In many situations there are more than just the two options “Tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth” and “lie.” Which is part of what we should teach our children. Just because something’s true does not necessarily mean it ought to be said. And, there are usually better, more honest ways of withholding truths that ought not be said, than asserting things that are false. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/8 "2007-10-16T01:36:44Z")
As far as I can tell, children figure it out on their own, to avoid consequences. I recall Jane Goodall, in one of her books – it might have been _Through a Window_ – described how young chimps dissemble to their parents (throwing a tantrum and then checking to see if anyone was watching, for example). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/9 "2007-10-16T02:54:54Z")
[QUOTE=blinkingblinking] But people have to learn how to lie. [/QUOTE] Perhaps, but they do not need to be taught. As soon as a kid figures out that admitting to being the one who knocked over the vase or took the last cookie means trouble, that kid will say something other than the truth to avoid consequences. Primatologists have discovered that all the great apes lie and there is a certain amount of evidence that many other animals lie (or exhibit behavior that translates to lying), so I see no reason to believe that adult humans are running about teaching their children to lie. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/10 "2007-10-16T12:20:22Z")
Kids lie as a developmental milestone, like walking and saying a first word. A surprisingly good overview can be found [here](http://www.answers.com/topic/lying?cat=health). Another view recognizes that our brains are evolved game playing deception calculators. This has our brain’s size and capacity mainly having occured as a means to out-decieve others and to out-detect decieption in others in a brain arms race. We are, in that view, no more truth telling capable than lie telling capable: it’s all about learning the risk of detection outweighs the possible gain. It is our parental role to teach that the risk is only worth it for a few “pro-social” lies. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/11 "2007-10-16T14:38:51Z")
Yeah, I love to explain to people who believe in brutal honesty that “That’s why people don’t like you very much. Just being honest, you know?” Tris ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/12 "2007-10-16T14:59:53Z")
It doesn’t take them long to put their own interest ahead of everyone else, hence lying is the logical thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/13 "2007-10-16T15:10:52Z")
As I recall, there were a number of games in early childhood that taught us both how to lie and how to detect lies: the card game “Cheat” would be one example, but there were others which involved the group collaborating against one inquisitor, with the goal of concealing which member was holding some sort of token. “Ali Baba” was one such. If you really want to teach kids to lie, games like this are probably a good way - particularly because the also reward the skill of detection. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/14 "2007-10-16T17:38:14Z")
Apparently I lied like a rug when I was tiny, to protect myself from some perceived threat of punishment or consequences. My parents don’t lie, so I guess I figured it out on my own. But that’s not tact/BSing the truth. But then, we do give cues to kids about tact: “That’s not nice, how would you feel if someone said that about you?” which might translate to their deciding not to say every mean thing that pops into their head. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/15 "2007-10-16T17:43:04Z")
[QUOTE=gigi] But then, we do give cues to kids about tact: “That’s not nice, how would you feel if someone said that about you?” which might translate to their deciding not to say every mean thing that pops into their head. [/QUOTE] Yes, and kids have been taught “If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all” for a _long_ time. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/16 "2007-10-16T19:21:45Z")
Why do you think people have to be taught to act in their own self interest? I bet the number of times people tell the truth against their percieved self interest is literally dwarfed by the number of times people lie in the same circumstance. There’s nothing to “teach” there, it’s just human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/17 "2007-10-16T19:33:09Z")
Reinforcement that lying is acceptable in this electronic age is readily apparent by the number of “cheat codes” and such with computer games. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2007, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/18 "2007-10-17T01:58:04Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Primatologists have discovered that all the great apes lie and there is a certain amount of evidence that many other animals lie [/QUOTE] cite? how exactly does an ape, or other animal lie? They have limited communication, how can they communicate something false? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2007, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/19 "2007-10-17T02:01:50Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] How do you know the people who did the studies weren’t lying? 😃 [/QUOTE] 68% of statistics are made up. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2007, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843/20 "2007-10-17T02:37:33Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] cite? how exactly does an ape, or other animal lie? They have limited communication, how can they communicate something false? [/QUOTE] See [here](http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/psychology/people/personal/rwb/publications/index.html#primate_mind) in the section called “Primate mind: deception, attention-reading, intentionality” #4 for a review. And [here.](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1511/is_n9_v19/ai_21130490) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-one-teach-ones-children-how-to-lie/422843.md?page=2)