# How does 'promotion' work in the military? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 24, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-promotion-work-in-the-military/540605 "2010-05-24T19:08:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-promotion-work-in-the-military/540605/21 "2010-05-25T14:31:41Z")
Junior Navy enlisted promotions: The Navy administers annual written tests that are geared primarily to whatever specialty you work in, i.e., sonar technician, electrician, plumber, etc. The second part of the test is geared to the military aspect of things (or was, back in the day). The score you receive on the test is combined with points from awarded medals and from your performance evaluations to give a final score. Then, depending on how many people in your specialty are being promoted, you may or may not move up. For instance, if they’re only promoting 15 people in your specialty, and your score makes you 16th, then you’ll be taking the test again next year. Senior Navy enlisted (E-7 to E-9): A test is administered, but selection is done by a selection board that meets once a year. Promotions are based more upon performance evaluations and types of assignments. If all you have ever done as an E-6 is sit in a recruiting office, your chances are not as good as an E-6 who has been directing deck crews on an aircraft carrier in a combat zone. The number of senior enlisted who are promoted are generally small, especially in what is known as non-critical ratings. It took me 17 years to finally reach E-7, while sailors in the nuclear power arena were being promoted with only eight years in. When I was eligible for E-8, only one was being promoted each year. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-promotion-work-in-the-military/540605/22 "2010-05-25T14:55:40Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > If there are no (or too few) slots open above you for you to be promoted into, does that stop the clock with respect to shifting you from ‘in zone’ to ‘above zone’? > [@yoyodyne](#): > > No, there are always too few slots for everyone that is eligible to be promoted. Exactly, but only for the ranks of O-4 and above. All qualified personnel can be promoted to O-2 and O-3. > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Robby, > > Why that up or out system? Doesn’t this mean that people who are competent as 0-4s but not above will be expelled, even though they could continue to do a good job in that position? > [@yoyodyne](#): > > The military sees it as the way to keep the best people. If you’re an O-4 that can’t make O-5 you’re out to make way for someone that can. Otherwise no slots would open and junior officers wouldn’t get promoted. It’s the ‘No Peter Principle.’ What **yoyodyne** said. Promotion in the military is very competitive, and for commissioned officers, the system is indeed “up or out.” For the officer ranks, the U.S. military has no place for those merely “competent” at their current grade. Commanding Officers are required to evaluate their personnel against an absolute standard, and are also required to rank all of their personnel (at a given grade) from best to worst. If an officer gets ranked as the worst in their peer group, their career will be short. > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Before someone is promoted, are they given a chance to see how they would perform at the superior level? E.g.: a platoon leader is given temporary command of the company to see how he handles it. > [@yoyodyne](#): > > No, but part of the rating of officers is the judgement by their current commander of how they would perform at the next level. Exactly. There is a lot of “trial by fire” for the various jobs an officer gets. Failure to perform will result in poor evaluations, which results in failure to promote to the next level. For the Navy, once you get past the Division Officer level, not only do you have to get selected for promotion to higher ranks, you also have selection boards to pick which officers get assigned as the Department Heads on a ship, as well as Executive Officer (XO) and Commanding Officer (CO). ---
**Author:** ![Baracus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@Baracus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baracus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-promotion-work-in-the-military/540605/23 "2010-05-25T15:30:47Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > You can have all your ducks in a row but if the commander doesn’t approve it isn’t happening. My commander once rejected someone in my squadron for promotion because he was too young to be made a Master Sergeant. This was in spite of the fact that he had met all of the requirements for promotion. In the commander’s eyes he simply wasn’t old enough yet. My impression based on my father’s experience in the Army National Guard is that things were pretty “political” there as well. He was a LtCol and worked in the headquarters. Despite always getting the highest ratings and his evaluations saying that he should get a promotion, he was kicked out to some shitty battalion level position because he was a no nonsense kind of guy who didn’t kiss the general’s ass. People who were chummier with the higher ups or had connections in the governor’s office seemed to move up more quickly as well. That was in NY though, so no big surprise there. Pertinent to someone else’s question, he had to wait some nine months for his promotion to LtCol to go through officially because it was part of some legislation that took some time making its way through Congress. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-promotion-work-in-the-military/540605/24 "2010-05-25T15:34:46Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > I also had no idea about the degree of formality and almost ‘pickyness’ there is when a candidate for promotion appears before the board. Not only does much of the knowledge requirement in such situations sound mind-numbingly rote, but the attention paid to things like “taking _exactly_ two steps” or “highly shined brass” or, the best (or scariest depending on your POV), Wow. I most definitely am not cut out for the military. > > Again, thanks for all your responses. The military system may seem unfair to those who are happy where they are, but the military routinely reassigns everybody to new sites, mainly, I think, to give the folks the broadest possible experience, as well as training the service members in different aspects of their jobs and duties. Every three or so years, its off to a new duty station. (It can be within the same geographical region, but it doesn’t have to be.) An example would be that an E5 might be a “mere” jet engine mechanic at one command, and then go on to instructor duty at the Navy “A” school (Tennessee?), which is a whole new skill set and opportunity to grow professionally. This also creates an interesting mindset that means the service member is more accustomed to lifestyle changes. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-promotion-work-in-the-military/540605/25 "2010-05-25T19:00:42Z")
From what I remember from my less-than-brilliant career as a Coast Guard enlisted 30 years ago. 1. Practical factors signed off by someone senior. Demonstrate you know how certain things work in both your rate (i.e. mechanic, boatswain’s mate, cook, electronics tech) and Coast Guard wide (i.e. paperwork things, customs and courtesies) 2. A written test of multiple questions (60? 100?) within your rate. For an Electronic Tech there would be questions of things such as AC theory, Magnetrons, test equipment, etc. 3. Time in grade. You can’t become an E-5 in January and and E-6 in February…You have to wait six months, a year based on each rate. 4. Commanding Officer has to approve you as worthy of promotion 5. There has to be a billet available for you. There would be a certain amount of people in rates (MK2 (machinery Techs), SS1 (cooks), etc) throughout the service. If they were full, there is a test for all members hoping to advance (“The Servicewide”) and they would make a certain number of people off each list. Like a pyramid the number of billets (jobs) narrow at the top and people seldom retire after 16 or 18 years (they wanted to get “the 20 year letter” certifying them for retirement pension when they retire). It isn’t unusual to make nobody off a list for that year for E-8 or E-9 ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-promotion-work-in-the-military/540605/26 "2010-05-25T20:46:48Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > From what I remember from my less-than-brilliant career as a Coast Guard enlisted 30 years ago. > > 1. Practical factors signed off by someone senior. Demonstrate you know how certain things work in both your rate (i.e. mechanic, boatswain’s mate, cook, electronics tech) and Coast Guard wide (i.e. paperwork things, customs and courtesies) > 2. A written test of multiple questions (60? 100?) within your rate. For an Electronic Tech there would be questions of things such as AC theory, Magnetrons, test equipment, etc. > 3. Time in grade. You can’t become an E-5 in January and and E-6 in February..You have to wait six months, a year based on each rate. > 4. Commanding Officer has to approve you as worthy of promotion > 5. There has to be a billet available for you. There would be a certain amount of people in rates (MK2 (machinery Techs), SS1 (cooks), etc) throughout the service. If they were full, there is a test for all members hoping to advance (“The Servicewide”) and they would make a certain number of people off each list. Like a pyramid the number of billets (jobs) narrow at the top and people seldom retire after 16 or 18 years (they wanted to get “the 20 year letter” certifying them for retirement pension when they retire). It isn’t unusual to make nobody off a list for that year for E-8 or E-9 Ah, right. Forgot about the TIG, the practical factors, etc. When I left after 23 years, I immediately erased much of that from my databanks. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-promotion-work-in-the-military/540605/27 "2010-05-25T20:54:05Z")
> [@Baracus](#): > > My impression based on my father’s experience in the Army National Guard is that things were pretty “political” there as well. He was a LtCol and worked in the headquarters. Despite always getting the highest ratings and his evaluations saying that he should get a promotion, he was kicked out to some shitty battalion level position because he was a no nonsense kind of guy who didn’t kiss the general’s ass. People who were chummier with the higher ups or had connections in the governor’s office seemed to move up more quickly as well. My parents (both Navy officers) commented on how important the “Navy Wife” thing could be to an officer’s career. An officer with a wife who was not very adept socially—or worse, was known to be cheating on the husband—could find himself stalled on the promotions ladder. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-promotion-work-in-the-military/540605/28 "2010-05-25T21:00:07Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Wow. Very, very helpful. > > One thing that is _very_ different, though, is the requirement that there be open slots above you. That is definitely not something I could accept readily. I assume there’s some sort of waiting list such that whenever there’s a ‘bottleneck’, the first people to arrive there get promoted first when a slot opens even if a later arrival to the bottleneck has a better overall score or ‘package’. I know you’re in academia, but this is hardly unusual outside the military—it’s standard practice in the private sector. There’s only so much money in the budget. Say a company can only afford to pay the salaries of one president, two VPs, three managers, six associates, and 12 assistants. They can’t be expected to promote everyone to “manager” level and wind up with 21 managers and no one below them. (Or promote 21 people to manager and THEN hire a whole new roster of associates and assistants… where does THAT money come from?) You can only expect a promotion to that level if one of the managers quits/gets fired/retires. If you need to move up before that happens, you go to another company. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-promotion-work-in-the-military/540605/29 "2010-05-25T21:08:18Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > My parents (both Navy officers) commented on how important the “Navy Wife” thing could be to an officer’s career. An officer with a wife who was not very adept socially—or worse, was known to be cheating on the husband—could find himself stalled on the promotions ladder. Does the gunner still take his wife aboard when he sails, like in the Jack Aubrey novels? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-promotion-work-in-the-military/540605/30 "2010-05-25T23:50:39Z")
My Dad is a retired O-8 (major general) in the Army. He had the dual blows in terms of promotion to brigadier general of being in the Corps of Engineers as a Colonel (don’t let anyone fool you…general officer promotions are highly political and infantry, armor, artillery, ie, combat officers get the lions share of promotions) and having had a heart attack and bypass surgery in the early 1980’s while attending the US Army War College in Carlisle. He got passed over repeatedly due to these reasons, but stuck it out and retired as deputy chief of Engineers as an O-8 in 1999 after 36 years in the Army (West Point grad, two tours in 'Nam, etc). He was up for the Chief job, which would have involved a third star, but by then he’d had enough of the political wranglings. Begging Congress for appropriation money for civil works projects is apparently a grey hair inducing experience. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-promotion-work-in-the-military/540605/31 "2010-05-26T00:40:43Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > I know you’re in academia, but this is hardly unusual outside the military—it’s standard practice in the private sector. There’s only so much money in the budget . . . SNIP . . . You can only expect a promotion to that level if one of the managers quits/gets fired/retires. If you need to move up before that happens, you go to another company. That’s a fair comment. It really _is_ an ivory tower, isn’t it? 🙂 That being said, there are still factors at work regarding promotion in the military that strike me as (potentially) unfair. For one, there’s not “another company” to move to. But, it’s the fact that you’re sent packing if you aren’t promoted, even though part of the reason you didn’t get promoted was (or at least, may have been) a lack of openings above, that I’m having trouble accepting as reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![CutterJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@CutterJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CutterJohn)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-promotion-work-in-the-military/540605/32 "2010-05-26T00:50:27Z")
One thing I don’t think I saw mentioned is that the promotions aren’t optional for enlisted either. Every year, you take the test. Now, provided you make E-5(at least in the navy), you can retire at 20 years. Its possible at that point for an E-5 or E-6(but rare, in my experience) to ‘sabotage’ their test scores to stay at a rank and position they prefer, rather than going to a chiefly management role. So its entirely possible for enlisted to coast anywhere e-5 or above once they find their comfort zone. Its not possible to be a career deck seaman though… You have 10 years to make E-5, then you get booted. I can’t say for certain, but I’m fairly sure one of my friends did this to avoid being an 8 year chief. Not the sort of thing one would admit to, but I can see why he wouldn’t want the responsibility so quickly. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-promotion-work-in-the-military/540605/33 "2010-05-26T02:33:22Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > That’s a fair comment. It really _is_ an ivory tower, isn’t it? 🙂 Until you’re [passed over for tenure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_University_of_Alabama_in_Huntsville_shooting) 😉 > [@KarlGauss](#): > > That being said, there are still factors at work regarding promotion in the military that strike me as (potentially) unfair. For one, there’s not “another company” to move to. But, it’s the fact that you’re sent packing if you aren’t promoted, even though part of the reason you didn’t get promoted was (or at least, may have been) a lack of openings above, that I’m having trouble accepting as reasonable. The reason you didn’t get promoted is not due to the lack of openings, but because someone else was better (partially at sucking-up) than you. The military isn’t a company and its purpose isn’t a national employment welfare agency. That it’s difficult to transfer your skills as a submarine driver or hydrogen bomb technician to a civilian company is not the military’s problem and something people should know when they sign up. There are valid criticisms of the system. It’s very wasteful to accept and train many more people than you need, then kick them out and have to train new ones. But it’s the system that exists, and most of the higher brass think it’s fine since it worked well for them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-promotion-work-in-the-military/540605.md?page=1)