How does religion give you hope when tragedy strikes?

Great Debates
41

Street faith is more like a hope so faith, I hope I win the lottery.
What church has a Biblical definition of what saving faith is and what belief is?

Do they know what “the faith of God” is? Rom. 3:3 KJV

Do they know “the faith of Jesus”? Gal. 2:16 KJV

Faith means “to bring to belief”.

Faith is a work. See 1 Thess. 1:3

The church should know we are not saved by our works, so saving faith must be His work in us to cause us to believe and not with a make-believe belief.

Faith is His work of assurance to cause us to believe God has raised Him from the dead.

When people do not know His faith they can only know their own faith. They may try to drum up their faith with religious works or rituals or with loud music repeated over and over again. When a person does religious works they will naturally feel religious but that is not real salvation.

Can you see the atheist are closer to the truth in knowing God is not real to them than unsaved religious people with a make-believe believing.

Unsaved religious people can choose and make Jesus the true object of their faith just like the unsaved religious people that worship idols made of stone or wood.

I am saying, religion is man choosing Jesus but what counts is God choosing you. And you knowing it!

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw**(G1670)** him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (You must wait on Him.)

That word translated draw is more like drag, with the force of His will. See how that Greek word is used.

Without His work of faith in you your work of faith is in vain. His work of faith gives His assurance.

Salvation is all His work and all His glory.

We know many will be deceived into thinking they are saved but will not be.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophecies in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: Depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

42

But at least you will make some pious soul very happy (quoted from here):

Peter Lombard, the Master of Sentences

“Therefore the elect shall go forth…to see the torments of the impious, seeing which they will not be grieved, but will be satiated with joy at the sight of the unutterable calamity of the impious .” Sent. Iv 50, ad fin

Augustine
“They who shall enter into [the] joy [of the Lord] shall know what is going on outside in the outer darkness. . .The saints’. . . knowledge, which shall be great, shall keep them acquainted. . .with the eternal sufferings of the lost.” [The City of God, Book 20, Chapter 22, “What is Meant by the Good Going Out to See the Punishment of the Wicked” & Book 22, Chapter 30, “Of the Eternal Felicity of the City of God, and of the Perpetual Sabbath”]

Thomas Aquinas
In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. . .So that they may be urged the more to praise God. . .The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens. . .to the damned. [Summa Theologica, Third Part, Supplement, Question XCIV, “Of the Relations of the Saints Towards the Damned,” First Article, “Whether the Blessed in Heaven Will See the Sufferings of the Damned. . .”]

“The same fire” (which he decides to be material) “ torments the damned in hell and the just in purgatory…The least pain in purgatory exceeds the greatest in this life.” Summa Theo. Suppl. Qu. 100, acts. 2, n. 3.

Jonathan Edwards
“The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.”

The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.

[“The Eternity of Hell Torments” (Sermon), April 1739 & Discourses on Various Important Subjects, 1738]

Come to think of it, if the majority of people who die (that is all people, right?) go to Hell that seems only fair. Only in this sense religion would be a relief if I only managed to believe it.

43

Atheism is a problematic term - and not one I would choose for myself, except that it has some understanding for many who may not appreciate more accurate terms. Theism is only one of the many unprovable mythologies that I reject. I am equally awitchcraft, afairies, aESP, etc. I prefer the term nontheist - because it reflects that that particular fairy tale is just irrelevant to anything that is meaningful to me. Other than that I periodically muse why persons I care for are so irrational in this one respect. Or, I would prefer to describe my beliefs in a positive manner. Instead of describing 1 thing I reject, I would call my self a rational or secular Humanist, and direct someone to the Humanist Manifesto.

If persons A and B are both going to go to heaven, but A gets to lead a long, healthy, happy life, whereas B leads a short, pain-filled life, I’d choose A, please. And, yes, that is one fucked up plan.

If you are going to believe in a mystical skypixie, why not choose to believe in one that isn’t such a dick?

Re: the OP, I guess I could imagine it giving someone comfort when they are going through unpleasant experiences, to think there is some reason for that, and that they would eventually reap some reward. I never felt the benefit of adopting such a mindfuck.

44

That was my problem too and why I asked the question. I knew that a funeral with a lot of believers was on the way. I also knew that there were going to be a lot of otherwise rational people saying (what to me at least) is non-sense. These are people that I don’t feel the need to get into a discussion about religion with. When I was a believer, saying the platitudes (God has a plan, he’s in a better place, God took him home) always made me feel better as the speaker, but didn’t when I was the one mourning. I was curious if anyone on the board felt differently and could provide their own experiences.

45

I think it only presents a problem for some who use it in such a way as to mean “claims there is definitely no god or gods”. By far the most common usage that I’m aware of is to mean merely a lack of a belief. It is the direct logical negation of “theist” and that’s it. It can get annoying when people refuse to accept that this is the way in which it is being used.

Nontheist is fine though there is no practical difference between atheist and nontheist in terms of the state of your belief in gods and I suspect that people will still not accept your own usage of that term.

You are right though in that such terms (either atheist or nontheist) tell you absolutely nothing about what a person actually does believe.

46

Sorry if I was unclear. I intended to say that atheism gives unnecessary precedence to on silly irrational belief - whereas I reject all silly irrational beliefs. I have a pretty healthy disdain for most of religion - I disfavor referring to it in describing my mindset. That is what I find problematic.

47

Ah, I see what you mean. Thanks, that is helpful.

Sure. if I thought that the term “atheist” was going to give that same impression I would probably expand my answer in the same sort of way that you would, because you are right. “atheist” is not a good descriptor of a mindset or worldview in my opinion.

ETA - and I’m liking the word “disfavor”, I am going to make it my word of the day!

48

If I want to console someone who is dying or someone who is grieving for someone who is dead or dying I try to match my platitudes to their beliefs. Why? Because it’s not about me, or my beliefs in this situation. It’s about them and making them feel better about the understandably fearful situation they’re in. I’ll tell them what I believe they want to hear even if it means lying or biting my tongue, because why not? I want to help them find peace, not debate them about the existence of God or an afterlife.

If I’m consoling someone I know to be religious I’ll say things along the lines of “you/they will soon be in a better place.” If I’m consoling someone I know to be an atheist, I’ll dial it back and say things along the lines of “you/they won’t be in pain much longer.” I’ll tell agnostics some of both.

I’m agnostic with a strong leaning toward atheism. When I’m the one dying, I’ll welcome any type of from-the-heart consolation that comes my way whether I believe what they are saying or not. It will console me because I’ll know they care and what’s better than to be surrounded by people who care about you when you die? It doesn’t matter whether their platitudes are accurate or not. I’m not grading them on accuracy.

When my time comes I may console myself with thoughts encompassing a spectrum of beliefs depending on my mood on the day. I may range from “well, at least I’ll soon be out of pain…and I won’t have to watch the Kardashians much longer” to “hey, maybe there is an afterlife and I’ll soon be playing a harp in the clouds—that sounds like fun!” I may even incorporate some Islamic belief: “72 virgins? Hell yeah, I’m ready to shuffle off this mortal coil!” Nothing wrong with a little self-delusion if it makes the medicine go down easier.

49

I am an atheist, but such statements really don’t bother me at all. It’s not about the details; it’s the INTENT. The person saying them is just trying to comfort the person to whom they are speaking, that’s all. The point isn’t the theological details, it’s their desire to comfort the bereaved that counts.

50

As far as I’ve seen only theists treat atheists as a group with a single set of beliefs. As to the emphasis on religion, that’s because in lots of places religion affects us. If the government, say, limited when we could have babies based on our horoscopes, I bet you’d see a lot more activity from people saying astrology is nonsense.

51

Seeing that God didn’t write the Bible but is the creator of all, with confidence i believe my heart & Soul he smiles above and roots for triers and thinkers !..Does that help!

52

I participate in religion because it brings value to me through shared tradition and community connection. I would not get these things as an atheist. In that way, atheism is a religious choice the same as any other. It provides certain things and takes away others. I have no claim of knowledge of everything. This is how I have chosen to live my life.

53

We used to participate in a kayaking Meetup that was similar.

54

My atheism is in no way a choice, it’s just what I am and always was. And I don’t miss the social activities I had in church, they were mostly boring anyway. I rather go drinking with my friends or to a concert, it’s more fun.

55

Then you’re not trying very hard. I have good relationships with a lot of people and I have no idea what their beliefs are, because it’s none of my business. When someone starts with god-talk, it’s usually the last time we will ever speak; but most people aren’t that rude. Your faith, or lack of same, is a personal matter. If you really feel that it MUST be part of the equation, then you’re missing out on a lot.

As for the OP, religion doesn’t enter into things for me when tragedy strikes. It’s my belief that most religions are predatory organizations that prey (ha!) on emotions and desperation. I refuse to attend funerals for that reason. When my son was dying a messy death (thanks, god) my ex-wife had the hospital priest come in for last rites. I wanted to throw him out bodily. My son would have hated having this charlatan in the room. Tragedy is messy, bloody, painful and undignified, yet people continue to talk about a merciful god. No thanks.

56

You really have no understanding of my life or experience of it.

57

Life is generally hard, sometimes exceedingly so, and I have had it pretty good throughout most of my life so I attempt not to judge. What other people need I may not necessarily understand. Two years ago I went to a funeral for a 9 year old who died senselessly. If religion is worth anything it could have come to bat there for faith inspired parents in their time of immense cosmically unfair grief. All I remember was some weak mentions of Lazarus. It was pathetic.

That situation should have been covered in Priest School 101. For all the mantras, chanting and parables there should be a stock religious response to the question, ‘why am I burying my young child?’.

That is the very least this fantasy book club could offer.

58

Hence the key word “if”.

59

See, this is where I disagree with you. The rejection of the G/god(s) is really a minuscule part of my nature - my belief system if you must. Well - it would be, if I didn’t live in a society where so many irrational believers were trying to jam it down my throat.

Instead, I consider myself to be a rational/secular Humanist. Statements of belief/religion such as the Humanist Manifesto I and UUA’s 7 Principles show how in a belief system tat values human life, science, and rational thought, the supernatural is simply irrelevant.

Yeah - religion can be convenient for such things. But you seriously don’t believe other organizations can offer shared tradition and community connection? I suspect you are failing to mention some other aspect religion provides you, such as a belief in life after death, as opposed to the Jaycees.

60

It has been noted that there has been a marked decline in social clubs or groups. Freemasons, Elks, etc have seen a massive drop off. Now, granted religious institutions have done so in the last 50 years as well, but they are still far more available than other social groups which have seemingly collapsed (FWIW, the Jaycees now indicate they have 12,500 members, down from a peak of 356,000 members in 1976). Of course the exactness of the shared tradition may be important as well.