How does Same Sex Marriage "violate" the sanctity of marriage?

Stratocaster,

I understand that in your hyptohetical, every single right and privilege granted to straight marriages is granted to gay civil unions, and, supposedly there will never be a legal difference.

But if a civil union is identical to a marriage in every way, why call it a civil union? Clearly some distinction has been made, and at that point, the only possible reason not to call it marriage is that the people currently enjoying that privilege don’t consider gay marriages to be equal to their own. That’s the essence of the problem with “separate but equal”. Separate can never be equal, no matter how alike they otherwise seem. In this case semantics is important. The only reason to reserve the word “married” for straight couples is to emphasize that gay couples are different and unworthy of that word.

Marriage is marriage. We didn’t create special words to denote interracial marriages. We don’t have a special term for marriages between people of different religions, or nationalities. It’s ridiculous to do so for gay couples.

Of course it’s ridiculous. The question is, is it uncontsitutional? There are plenty of ridiculous things that are perfectly constitutional. We also have to consider the federal vs state constitutionality as well.

Revenant Threshold, perhaps I’m misunderstanding, but don’t these examples assume that parties to a civil union do NOT have the same rights and duties as parties to a marriage? If that’s the case, I see the beef. But, again, my understanding is that civil unions would be like marriage in all things (legally speaking, that is) except name.

I guess I’m not seeing this. We’re discussing something that would not be a common law interpretation, but specific legislation that would render those in a civil union as having the same rights and duties as those who are party to a marriage. I don’t see where precedence comes into it. Can you think of an example where it might?

Sorry, this isn’t helpful at all. I fully understand the stigma associated with keeping the name marriage from gays. I’m asking if there’s a specific legal disparity that someone can envision, a real violation of rights. “Separate can never be equal” is fine speechifying, but it doesn’t answer the question posed.

The problem lies in that while the law itself would be the same, the interpretation of the law might not be, and it’s precedence that determines to a large extent the interpretation. If it’s suggested that same-sex civil unions use the same precedence and history of opposite-sex marriage, it’s all too easy to say “But if they were meant to be the same thing, then they’d both be called the same thing. A difference is enshrined in law, ergo previous findings are not applicable”. Any previous findings by courts could be ignored; whether that lends an advantage or a disadvantage, it would be by it’s very nature unequal.

I am not a constitutional scholar, but wasn’t “separate but equal” already ruled to be unconstitutional?

In the context of race, yes. And that was physical separation, which has some similarities, but also some differences. There’s nothing inherently unconstitutional about different laws for different people, but there are different thresholds that have to be passed depending on the class of people the law affects. For race, there is an almost insurmountable threshold but for sexual orientation it’s not as high.

Check out the section entitled “Carolene Products and the various levels of Equal Protection scrutiny” in the wiki link for Equal Protection Clause. Also check out the “Suspect Classes” section.

So Stratocaster has made up an “ideal” hypothetical and asked for others to show real-world problems. When they have speculated, he’s replied that it couldn’t happen because his hypothetical is so perfectly crafted. But reality shows us that is bullshit. He tells us the State Department would demand that other nations grant our “Civil Unions” the same respect they give our marriages. But in the real world, the U.S. sides with nations like China, Cuba, and Iran on gay issues at the UN. He asserts that courts would give full consideration of precedence to the new arrangement that it does to marriage. And we’re supposed to accept that premise on his mere assertion; despite the fact that in real life, blood relatives have successfully challenged the legal wills of dead gay people who have left their estates to their partners.

It’s a waste of time to discuss this hypothetical which does not and likely cannot exist.

Besides which, the simple division of marriage and civil union reflects an attitude that they are not equal. If they are equal then there is no reason to call them different things except for pure bigotry.

Stratocaster, I’m afraid I don’t understand the point of your hypothetical, here. Yes, if a civil union law were passed that made civil unions identical in all respects, in all rights, duties, and protections, then the difference between them and marriage would be purely semantic. But the problem is, we’re never going to get a civil union law that is identical in all respects, in all rights, duties, and protections, to marriage. The whole point of offering civil unions instead of marriages is to offer less than marriage. Otherwise, why not offer marriage itself? Instead of asking us why we’d object to civil unions that were identical to marriages, ask the anti-SSM brigade why they’re offering everything about marriage except the name. That’s where the real mystery in this debate is.

And for the record, if your hypothetical actually came to pass, I’d still press for marriage rights. Even if the difference is purely semantic, it’s still a difference, and one that serves no point whatsoever, except to spite homosexuals.

My challenge was to the idea that the difference between civil unions and marriages was “purely semantical,” Stratocaster, and there are solid reasons for raising the objection. Marriages are “portable” – a(n opposite sex) marriage contracted in one place is recognized in other jurisdictions without any challenge. There is extensive case law on marriage. In an ideal hypothetical situation where “marriage” and “civil union” are truly identical concepts known by different names, this would not be a distinction. But outside Nephelococcygia, such ideal situations do not exist. And if they were truly identical, what would be the need or desire for two disparate terms? At present, a civil marriage and a religious marriage are identical in law throughout the U.S. and in, I believe, the English-speaking world. (Clairobscur can address the rather odd situation in France.) Explain to me the distinction between a civil union and a civil marriage. (And, while you’re at it, why should not a religious gay couple attending a church which recognizes same-sex marriage have a religious marriage?)

Tom, I believe that you’re belaboring a point. Prior to, say, 1975, there were vanishingly few legally-recognized gay marriages (there are a couple recorded, a bit of historical trivia). Hence the term “marriage” at law certainly generally referred to a monogamous marital union of one man and one woman. But I would hesitate to suggest that this was the sole meaning that people would construe the term marriage to have: “King Solomon had 100 wives”’ “Harmodius and Aristogeiton considered themselves married”; “The early Mormons contracted polygamous marriages to effect rapid population increase, among other reasons.” All these would be well-formed statements (truth value debatable, but clear English) which any reader in 1900 or 1950 would construe to be describing actual marriages in other times and places which refer to social structures outside the socially-accepted, legally-mandated one man/one woman system of the time.

Now, the parallel thread is using Loving to address the idea that Equal Protection says that a marriage across racial lines was equally a valid marriage as one within the same race – contrary to the statute law of numerous states. The assertion being made by many people here is that, despite legal definitions delimiting marriage to opposite-sex couples and inferences in various legal codes referring to “the husband” and “the wife,” the Equal Protection Clause, in a precise parallel, requires that a more modern concept, legally recognized same-sex marriages, be recognized as equal to traditional opposite-sex marriages.

Freedom of speech, copyright laws, libel and slander, all expanded to incorporate broadcast media, the Internet, etc., because the principles on which they were founded were “extendable” to recognize a new mode of expression. No “redefinition” in statute was called for in some cases (in others, the differences in medium required it); the principles were the same. Likewise, Joe and Tom’s right to contract marriage is equally protected with Bob and Jane’s.

Well put as usual, Polycarp. It’s often not all that hard to resolve an issue when the underlying principles are articulated - especially when one of them at its most presentable amounts to “we’re just not ready yet”.

And here’s another articulation: “Senator, when you took your oath of office, you placed your hand on the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution. You didn’t put your hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible.” - Jamie Raskin

This is a riot! You continue to prove my point. Your cite that the post-law change won’t work is to cite the very pre-law change situations that the law would be designed to remedy. And “my hypothetical” as you refer to it is an element in the campaigns of several national candidates I am aware of, including the last presidential campaign of Senator Kerry, unless I’m misunderstanding their positions. And I don’t think I am.

Then don’t waste your time, particularly since you are doing so to craft a straw man. I certainly won’t waste my time defending a position I never took.

I would not disagree with the notion that calling them something different is to pander to a sentiment that holds SSM as lesser.

Look, can we dispense with this practice of calling this “Stratocaster’s hypothetical”? Unless you actually disagree that this is the specifically proposed position of proponents of civil unions. You may say this position is a Utopian pipe dream. But I am neither its architect nor a proponent. So, yes, my question is how a law that codified that civil unions assigned all the rights and duties of marriage would result in practice as something that did otherwise. I’m not asserting that can’t happen either. I’m not arguing for civil unions. I’m asking the “bad” that people envision when they invoke this concern. I understand the distaste over the whole idea that some refuse to call it marriage.

I don’t think it’s mysterious at all. Do you really?

Feel free. I don’t believe I’d fight you on it.

To placate those who think that this is not a marriage. Personally, I think it’s a meaningless exercise. So far as the law is concerned, my marriage (a “traditional” heterosexual marriage, one conducted in a Catholic church) is nothing more than a civil union. That’s all the law should rightly contemplate regarding my marriage–the civil aspects of it.

Poly, why do you continue to ask me to defend positions I have either not taken or have specifically disavowed? As for the difference, I don’t see one. Again, as far as Uncle Sam and the local municipality are concerned, my marriage, the one I previously described, is a civil union. I may assign many other values to it, religious, spiritual, etc. But that’s none of their business.

You must not be following this issue very closely, then. First of all, Kerry’s “position” was a vague platitude with no specific plan. And I’m not aware of any candidate that had a civil union plan that was specifically crafted rather than a vague promise. Secondly creating a second institution would not work for the multitude of reasons given and no amount of wishing will make it different.

Then why do you keep ignoring the answers, among which are portability issues, case law precedents and respect.

History and current politics show us that your ideal hypothetical is a fantasy. And it creates a host of problems including some for employers, landlords and the tax man. Will your fantasy force companies who offer spousal benefits to rewrite their policies to include civil partners? Will landlords be forced to no longer charge two deposits to same-sex couples, treating them as singles, instead of one deposit for a married couple? Will all the tax forms be rewritten? Just the bureaucratic nightmare of changing everything makes it far simpler to expand marriage.

Finally, why should we placate bigots instead of demanding the respect and full equality we deserve as citizens of this nation?

Multitude of reasons, eh? Okay, we’ll just disagree what the responses in this thread constitute in terms of reasons. It’s clear we ain’t going to be able to discuss this. Neither of us sees that the other is making sense or a legitimate point.

Why do you keep ignoring the specific question posed? Don’t tell me “law precedents.” Tell me, “Precedent as it relates to marriage would NOT apply to civil unions in matters pertaining to estate tax laws, and here’s why I think this…” If all you have is a vague feeling that “precedent” is a potential threat to a separate institution, fine, say that–which effectively says to me, “I don’t really have a specific ‘bad’ to describe to you.” That’s okay. Let’s just stop talking past each other.

Nothing need be re-written. If an insurance company may not refuse spousal benefits to those in a “traditional” marriage, than a law that assigned the same rights and duties to those in a civil union would demand they must do the same for those in the latter category. What about this seems to fantastic to you?

You may do as you like. I respect the position. My question does not imply you should abandon something important to you. I’m just asking a question of clarification because I don’t see the stigma–and I have acknowledged in this thread that it’s a real one–having a specific effect within the law, not if civil unions do as those who support them (in the main) say they will.

Hasn’t this been addressed?

What would you accept as a “specific bad”, if all of the specific problems mentioned so far don’t count? I don’t really see the point of your line of argument here. Essentially you’re saying “I’m suggesting a perfect scenario that would operate in a perfect world. Show me where I’m wrong. Real world scenarios don’t count.”

OK then, here’s where you’re wrong. Even in a perfect society that accepted every singe legal right for gay marriages that it currently holds for straight marriages, there is no possible reason to give it a different name than “We don’t like you”. I have no idea whether that’s legal or not. But it’s blatantly obvious that there’s no legal reason to separate the two.

For that matter, what society that refused to call gay unions “marriage” would actually be willing to grant them full protection?

I agree with the others here that you are overestimating the amount of detail put into this proposal by politicians. People throw the term “civil unions” around like there is some consensus definition of what it would be, but there just isn’t. And if you look at the actual implimentation of civil unions, they never do cover all the “indicents of marriage”, to use the legal term.

This one is easy. That law wouldn’t give the couple joined in the civil union the right to obtain a marriage license. Aside from this, of the civil unions being proposed that do actually attempt to give the exact same rights to unions as marriage has, these are only state rights, not access to the federal benefits of being married. Separate but equal is therefore anything but.

As for other differences, how many 17 year olds can enter into a civil union in the few states that allow it? Many of them can and do get married.

Well, I’m refering to it as “your” hypothetical because a) you’re the one who keeps injecting it into this thread, and b) because you are, in fact, the only person I know of who has put forward this idea. The only civil union proposals I’ve ever seen that had specifics about what a civil union entailed have left out a significant portion of the marraige rights. Usually federal rights, as the proposals I’ve seen have all been made at the state level. No one is seriously proposing what you’ve been discussing in this thread as a legitimate piece of legislation.

But you’ve crafted your hypothetical so that nothing we say can apply to it. If we say, “It’ll leave out important rights and priviledges,” which is almost certainly what will happen if there’s ever an attempt to make this into a federal law, you say, “Pretend that it won’t.” Well, that’d be great if it happened, but it’s not going to happen. If, someday, someone does make a federal civil union proposal, it’s going to be significantly less than full marriage rights, because it’s going to be a compromise between people who think gays should just be able to marry, and people who think gays deserve no rights at all. Something is going to be lost in the process of making this into law, and that’s assuming someone ever proposes it in the first place. Which, again, no one ever has, and so far as I know, no one is planning to do anytime real soon.

So I ask again, what is the point of this hypothetical? What do you think is going to be proven or disproven by the answers you get here? As you said to Homebrew:

What point are you trying to make in this thread? I don’t see one at all, legitimate or otherwise.

I appreciate that.