# How does that 'Mormon' cult get away with it?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 22, 2008, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329 "2008-04-22T00:04:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@randwill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randwill)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/1 "2008-04-22T00:04:19Z")
Are the people who belong to religious cults, like the one that got raided the other week in Texas, above US law?
Are children born there American citizens? Do they have Texas birth certificates? Are they bound by laws that require the children to go to school up to a certain age? Are they exempt from US and state laws regulating the number of spouses they may have? Are they exempt from laws prohibiting sex with minors? What about vacinations for disease? Do they have to follow Texas and US law with regard to these type of health care issues. Do the members of the cult file state and federal tax returns? Do they pay property tax to Texas? Ect, ect.
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### Author:  [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/2 "2008-04-22T00:23:24Z")
I was amused by an article on [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) today, where they quoted one of the men as saying basically, “Golly, we didn’t know there was a law against having sex with girls under 18!”
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### Author:  [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/3 "2008-04-22T00:24:37Z")
I’ve read that they get around the bigamy laws by only officially marrying at most one person according to state law; the rest are just kind of living there. They are, as recent events have shown, not exempt from the sex with minors law. However, in order to prosecute, the state has to have evidence; unless someone such as the minor being violated or someone else with the evidence comes forward, little can be done. They stay isolated so as to avoid providing evidence any any other law violations to an outsider.
As far as being American citizens, yes, they are, having been born here.
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/4 "2008-04-22T00:33:18Z")
To answer the OP, yes, they have to follow all applicable laws, local, state, and federal. Some laws at some times may be affected by religious belief. Vaccinations have been an issue at times. I don’t know what Texas law is on the subject. For most practical purposes, being part of a religion is irrelevant to obeying secular laws.
There are accusations that some laws were broken, and an investigation is obviously taking place. However, I don’t know of any charges that have been officially filed. They are as innocent as any other group would be legally as of this writing.
There was a mention on the news today that the sect moved to Texas pre-2004, when the legal age for marriage in Texas was 14. That was raised to 16 in 2004. Rather than not abiding by laws, that’s an indication they wanted to go where the law was favorable to them so that they wouldn’t be breaking it.
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### Author:  [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/5 "2008-04-22T00:33:34Z")
I wonder where in the heck they get the money to support a compond like that.
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### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/6 "2008-04-22T02:31:23Z")
[QUOTE=enipla]
I wonder where in the heck they get the money to support a compond like that.
[/QUOTE]
I can’t answer for sure about the Texas compound, but in Colorado, City, it was tax fraud, pure and simple. As I said in my post ([#60](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9681379&postcount=60)) in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=463411) thread,
> [@Me](#):
>
> Under-age sex slaves aside, Jeffs and his followers had been committing tax-fraud, skimming money from the public school system and using it to teach their kids in a ‘private’ school, plus lining their own pockets. It was about the only way a man can support four wives and thirty children in a rural area with no industrial or technical base whatsoever – and not much agriculture besides. [This](http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2003-04-10/news/polygamy-in-arizona-the-wages-of-sin/) Phoenix New Times article way back in 2003\* details what was going on. Finally goaded into action, Arizona officials seized control of the school district and began administering it directly.
>
> \*None of the other papers in the state were covering the story in Colorado City at the time. Search the PNT site with “Polygamy in Arizona” as a phrase to get the whole series of articles.
They are also excelled at writing grant applications. After 9/11 when the Feds were ladling out money to help local first responders beef up their emergency skills, the little spit-kit volunteer fire department in Colorado City received the fourth largest grant to any fire department of any size in the entire country. Any guesses who controlled that fire department and how much money was spent on, oh . . . bomb trucks?
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/7 "2008-04-22T02:50:35Z")
[QUOTE=randwill]
Are the people who belong to religious cults, like the one that got raided the other week in Texas, above US law?
[/quote]
First off, that group does not claim and never has claimed to be Mormon. Second, apparently, they really do believe they are above the laws.
> [@](#):
>
> Are children born there American citizens?
[Of course.](http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am14)
> [@](#):
>
> Do they have Texas birth certificates?
I think that’s part of the problem with sorting out what’s happening.
> [@](#):
>
> Are they bound by laws that require the children to go to school up to a certain age?
Of course.
> [@](#):
>
> Are they exempt from US and state laws regulating the number of spouses they may have?
Of course not. However, this may be harder to prove in a court of law than what you and I may think at first glance.
> [@](#):
>
> Are they exempt from laws prohibiting sex with minors?
Obviously not. That’s why the authorities came barrelling in: because they received what they believed to be credible information regarding sexual abuse of at least one minor.
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### Author:  [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/8 "2008-04-22T02:51:01Z")
[QUOTE=DesertDog]
I can’t answer for sure about the Texas compound, but in Colorado, City, it was tax fraud, pure and simple. As I said in my post ([#60](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9681379&postcount=60)) in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=463411) thread,They are also excelled at writing grant applications. After 9/11 when the Feds were ladling out money to help local first responders beef up their emergency skills, the little spit-kit volunteer fire department in Colorado City received the fourth largest grant to any fire department of any size in the entire country. Any guesses who controlled that fire department and how much money was spent on, oh . . . bomb trucks?
[/QUOTE]
What about welfare fraud? I vaguely recall allegations that the plural wives all receive welfare and food stamps and the like, since they are “single mothers,” and they call it “bleeding the beast,” i.e. draining the evil federal government of money.
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### Author:  [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/9 "2008-04-22T02:57:33Z")
[QUOTE=Monty]
First off, that group does not claim and never has claimed to be Mormon.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know about that – they don’t claim to be associated with the major religion based in Salt Lake City that is often known by the term “Mormon,” but they do call themselves Mormons, and in fact they consider themselves the only true Mormons because the Salt Lake City Mormons are apostates who have gone astray and blah blah blah etc.
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/10 "2008-04-22T03:01:13Z")
That’s right. You don’t know.
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/11 "2008-04-22T03:20:52Z")
To expand:
They don’t call themselves Mormons. They call themselves the _Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints_. Just because the _Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints_ is referred to as Mormons does not mean that the FLDS uses that term.
[Here is the Wiki page on that particular outfit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLDS). And [here is the FLDS site](http://www.fldstruth.com/). They’re not referring to themselves as Mormons.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/12 "2008-04-22T03:23:40Z")
[QUOTE=Monty]
[QUOTE=randwill]
Are they bound by laws that require the children to go to school up to a certain age?
[/QUOTE]
Of course.
[/QUOTE]
The children were home schooled, which is legal in Texas.
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/13 "2008-04-22T03:31:18Z")
Home-schooling, where legal, is, of course, obeying the relevant laws on attending school. 🙂 Once the child reaches a certain age, there is no longer a requirement for attending a public or private school or for continued home-schooling.
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/14 "2008-04-22T03:33:53Z")
It’s true that the [official position](http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/use-of-the-word-mormon-in-news-reports) of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that the breakaway sects are not properly called Mormons.
To anybody outside that’s as meaningless as the Pope proclaiming anyone not a member of the Roman Catholic Church not to be Catholics. Since they don’t consider themselves under the aegis of the Pope, no pronouncement of his is binding on them.
As for this [particular group](http://www.religioustolerance.org/flds.htm):
> [@](#):
>
> The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) also considers their group to be the only true descendent from Smith’s original church. They call themselves “Original Mormons” or “Fundamentalist Mormons.”
I cannot imagine why anyone on the outside of these two organizations would refrain from calling the group Mormon. There is no authority that decides these matters for the secular world. A newspaper should abide by the naming the group gives itself, which is Mormon. A good newspaper would also explain that the mainstream body sees the situation differently, but not give it any greater authority.
Monty, you mean the Wiki page with the first line that reads:
> [@](#):
>
> The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS Church) is one of the largest **Mormon** fundamentalist denominations.
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/15 "2008-04-22T03:36:16Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase]
I cannot imagine why anyone on the outside of these two organizations would refrain from calling the group Mormon. There is no authority that decides these matters for the secular world.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, there is, and his name is **Monty**.
This issue really seems to bug him, and he continues to post religious doctrine as a factual answer in GQ despite being shown that he is wrong several times in the past.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/16 "2008-04-22T03:37:34Z")
[QUOTE=Monty]
[Here is the Wiki page on that particular outfit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLDS). And [here is the FLDS site](http://www.fldstruth.com/). They’re not referring to themselves as Mormons.
[/QUOTE]
Right, but “Mormon fundamentalism” is the generally accepted term nowadays to talk about groups that split off from Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the “Mormons”) over the practice of plural marriage. I know the Mormons don’t like the term used to refer to those groups, but that’s a battle they’ve already lost.
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/17 "2008-04-22T04:14:05Z")
[QUOTE=friedo]
Yes, there is, and his name is **Monty**.
This issue really seems to bug him, and he continues to post religious doctrine as a factual answer in GQ despite being shown that he is wrong several times in the past.
[/QUOTE]
friedo: You are quite mistaken. Your comments here are not true. And you really shouldn’t’ve posted that malarkey, IMHO, in GQ as it’s an obvious _ad hominem_ attack.
By the way, **Captain Amazing** , The Associated Press, an organization one would presume to be a secular organization, publishes a style guide for its reporters. Care to guess what they say about the use of the term _Mormon_?
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### Author:  [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/18 "2008-04-22T04:23:22Z")
\
This really is more _Great Debates_ territory.
Have at it, kids.
\
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### Author:  [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/19 "2008-04-22T04:43:55Z")
[QUOTE=Monty]
To expand:
They don’t call themselves Mormons. They call themselves the _Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints_. Just because the _Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints_ is referred to as Mormons does not mean that the FLDS uses that term.
[Here is the Wiki page on that particular outfit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLDS). And [here is the FLDS site](http://www.fldstruth.com/). They’re not referring to themselves as Mormons.
[/QUOTE]
Wow, that was pretty hostile for a GQ post, **Monty**. I know this is a hot button issue for you, but that doesn’t excuse a personal attack outside the pit.
In any case, members of the FLDS church certainly do call themselves Mormons. I know several of them, and they have no problem referring to themselves as either “Mormon,” “Fundamentalist Mormon,” or “the only true Mormons,” depending on the type of conversation.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2008, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-that-mormon-cult-get-away-with-it/446329/20 "2008-04-22T04:49:31Z")
So, if these guys aren’t “Mormons” of some type, even though they come out of the same tradition, I guess mainstream Mormons aren’t Christians. Right? This semantic policing of use of the term “Mormon” looks very defensive in nature. Mainstream Mormons embraced polygamy for decades, and then renounced it. Some splinter groups disagreed with that renunciation and carry on the same traditions today. That makes them Fundamentalist Mormons in the same sense that there are Fundamentalist Catholics out there (like Mel Gibson’s church) that don’t accept the reforms of Vatican II.
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