# How does the anti-war movement envision the state of Iraq post-withdrawal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585 "2008-07-15T17:54:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/61 "2008-07-16T03:14:48Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] I don’t understand your analogy. The present situation in Iraq is not great but it isn’t out of control. If the US wants to win, it can try a lot harder and it has many more resources that could be brought to bear. If the US is rationing gasoline and conscripting schoolgirls and still not winning, then you would be correct. [/QUOTE] You seem to be awfully generous about the use of American blood and treasure to “win” the Iraq war. I suppose we could also bring out the nukes, if we were really serious about “winning”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/62 "2008-07-16T05:02:20Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t understand your analogy. The present situation in Iraq is not great but it isn’t out of control. If the US wants to win, it can try a lot harder and it has many more resources that could be brought to bear. If the US is rationing gasoline and conscripting schoolgirls and still not winning, then you would be correct. First, you have no evidence to support your belief that more troops and a larger military presense in Iraq would make things significantly better. Second, I think you’re giving too little weight to the cost of the occupation. The United States is already feeling the strain. Any major increase in our presense would have a serious cost. Third, even if everything you say is correct - so what? Do we owe Iraq something? I have nothing against Iraq and I wish them all the best but I don’t feel we have any obligation to sacrifice ourselves in their country. Four thousand Americans have died in Iraq. I see no reason to add another four thousand to that total. The problem isn’t that we haven’t spent enough in Iraq. The problem is that we’ve already spent too much. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/63 "2008-07-16T05:28:23Z")
> [@](#): > > There’s also the fact that we didn’t have the right to do it. I imagine that is of little consolation to the Iraqis. > [@](#): > > You seem to be awfully generous about the use of American blood and treasure to “win” the Iraq war. I suppose we could also bring out the nukes, if we were really serious about “winning”. I certainly value Iraqi blood and treasure just as much. Judging from your “nukes” comment, you and your countrymen obviously do not. This is why the US will not win - the war was launched on the basis of fear and hatred. The Americans cared not a whit about the fate of Iraq or Iraqis and never have, and you need more than fear and hatred to slug it out in a counter-insurgency. > [@](#): > > First, you have no evidence to support your belief that more troops and a larger military presense in Iraq would make things significantly better. The recent troop surge seems to be having a generally positive effect. Beyond that, well, it’s a social science. > [@](#): > > Second, I think you’re giving too little weight to the cost of the occupation. The United States is already feeling the strain. Any major increase in our presense would have a serious cost. Again, I see little evidence of this. > [@](#): > > Third, even if everything you say is correct - so what? Do we owe Iraq something? I don’t know if this is a joke or not. DO you owe the Iraqis something? Look back at the last 5 years and hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis and you tell me with a straight face that you owe them nothing. To be honest, I think **Der Trihs** gets flamed a lot because his description of America is a little too close to the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/64 "2008-07-16T18:27:48Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t know if this is a joke or not. DO you owe the Iraqis something? Look back at the last 5 years and hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis and you tell me with a straight face that you owe them nothing. Stop trying to make emotional appeals with no logic behind them. They’re not going to sway me. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed since 2003. Who do you think is responsible? If the United States is responsible for those deaths then we should leave the country and stop the killing. If the United States isn’t responsible for those deaths then what’s the obligation you’re claiming? Hundreds of thousands of people have died in other countries in the last five years. Do we owe them the same thing we owe Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/65 "2008-07-16T18:45:07Z")
This wasn’t really addressed to me, but I thought I’d answer some of them anyway: > [@](#): > > Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed since 2003. Who do you think is responsible? Saddam. The Iraqi’s themselves, both those in power at the time, and those who have targeted their own people. Bush et al. The US government (including both the executive and legislature branches) as well as the US people. I could probably lay some blame on some others (the UN perhaps, several European nations), but I think the others are those mainly at fault and everyone else was pretty much a bit player by the time of the US invasion. > [@](#): > > If the United States is responsible for those deaths then we should leave the country and stop the killing. Sure. The problem being that I doubt anyone thinks that if the US leaves everything will be all goodness and light in Iraq…nor that the killing would magically stop. In fact, I think most people understand that if the US pulled out, even today, that the killing would only increase in intensity. I’ll leave the other questions to the one they were directed at, especially the last one as it seems a silly stance to take. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/66 "2008-07-16T18:46:10Z")
You conveniently forgot about the part where you destroyed their country on completely false pretenses. EDIT: **Little Nemo** , that is. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/67 "2008-07-16T18:52:52Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] You are mistaken. [/quote] [No, you are.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayan_Emergency) [QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] In any case, I get your point - you don’t think the US can win. I think the US can . . . [/QUOTE] But I don’t see you making any credible or coherent case that the U.S. **should** “win” – nor even stating clearly that you think so. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/68 "2008-07-16T18:59:40Z")
> [@](#): > > No, you are. It would help your case if you actually read your own links. It seems very odd to me that someone who apparently has so many great ideas on the subject could be unaware of the Malaya emergency being a classic example of how to successfully conduct a counter-insurgency campaign. You’t think that this excerpt from your link would have tipped you off: [QUOTE=your link] The conflicts in Malaya and Vietnam have been compared many times and it has been asked by historians how a British force of 35,000 **succeeded** where over a half million U.S. and others soldiers failed. However the two conflicts differ in several key points. [/QUOTE] This would lead me to believe that… > [@](#): > > But I don’t see you making any credible or coherent case that the U.S. should “win” – nor even stating clearly that you think so. …since I can’t reach through the internet and MAKE you see it, I can only conclude that you also have no interest in honest discussion and any further effort on my part would be a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/69 "2008-07-16T19:02:51Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] It would help your case if you actually read your own links. [/quote] I read it. You didn’t. > [@](#): > > The withdrawal of Japan at the end of World War II left the Malayan economy disrupted; problems included unemployment, low wages, and scarce and expensive food. There was considerable labour unrest, and a large number of strikes occurred in 1946 through 1948. At the same time, the British administration was attempting to repair Malaya’s war-damaged economy quickly, especially as income from Malaya’s tin and rubber industries was important to Britain’s own post-war recovery. As a result, strikers were dealt with harshly, by measures including arrests and deportations. The strikers became increasingly militant, and violent incidents occurred. When, on June 16, 1948, three European plantation managers were killed at Sungai Siput, Perak, the British brought into law emergency measures, first in Perak and then, in July, country-wide. Under the measures, the MCP and other leftist parties were outlawed, and the police were given the power to imprison, without trial, communists and those suspected of assisting communists. The MCP, led by Chin Peng, retreated to rural areas, and formed the Malayan National Liberation Army (MNLA), also known as the Malayan Races Liberation Army (MRLA), or the Malayan People’s Liberation Army (MPLA). The MNLA began a guerrilla campaign, targeting mainly the colonial resource extraction industries, which in Malaya were the tin mines and rubber plantations. > > The MNLA was partly a re-formation of the Malayan People’s Anti-Japanese Army (MPAJA), the MCP-led guerrilla force which had been the principal resistance in Malaya against the Japanese occupation. The British had secretly trained and equipped the MPAJA during the later stages of World War II. The MPAJA was disbanded in December, 1945. Officially, it turned all of its weapons in to the British Military Administration at that time, however many weapons were not returned and were stashed for possible future use. The anti-communists referred to the MNLA as “communist terrorists”, which was often abbreviated to “terrs”, “Charlie Tango” or “CTs”. That’s nationalism vs. imperialism, not communism vs. democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/70 "2008-07-16T19:04:42Z")
> [@](#): > > You conveniently forgot about the part where you destroyed their country on completely false pretenses. If we destroyed their country by our occupation then why should we give them more of the same? > [@](#): > > I’ll leave the other questions to the one they were directed at, especially the last one as it seems a silly stance to take. No, I was pointing out the logical inconsistency of Throatwarbler’s position. He’s saying that the United States owes Iraq because of the occupation. But he wants to repay them by continuing and even expanding that same occupation. Which, if his premise is correct, would just increase our debt. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/71 "2008-07-16T19:14:41Z")
> [@](#): > > If we destroyed their country by our occupation then why should we give them more of the same? Most of the destruction would have occurred during the invasion. The remedy would be for the US to restore order, civil society and rebuild the infrastructure that was destroyed. So no, I am not advocating that you “give them more of the same”, a patently absurd notion. For example, if I break into your home, beat the snot out of you and burn your house down, your remedy, one would hope, should not stop at simply stopping me from continuing to beat you. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/72 "2008-07-16T19:43:02Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] rebuild the infrastructure that was destroyed. [/QUOTE] Nah, we’ve been down that road, [spent a shitpile of money, lined the pockets of many a no-bid contractor](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7444083.stm), and have little to show for it. America is not capable of rebuilding Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/73 "2008-07-16T19:46:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Most of the destruction would have occurred during the invasion. So you feel that all of the problems that are happening in Iraq now are just the aftereffects of the invasion that happened in 2003? Because when I open the newspaper, I read about people being killed today. Presumedly they’re not dying of wounds that were inflicting five years ago. > [@](#): > > I am not advocating that you “give them more of the same”, a patently absurd notion. Then you should explain what it is you meant to say because that’s what you’ve been calling for so far in this thread. You wrote: > [@](#): > > There is no reason why the US cannot triple or quadruple troop levels in Iraq, while vastly increasing expenditures for both operations and reconstruction. It can be just as easily argued that the lack of progress to date has been due to insufficient troop levels and effort. ie give them more of the same. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/74 "2008-07-16T20:13:40Z")
> [@](#): > > So you feel that all of the problems that are happening in Iraq now are just the aftereffects of the invasion that happened in 2003? Because when I open the newspaper, I read about people being killed today. Presumedly they’re not dying of wounds that were inflicting five years ago. Has everything that has been destroyed by the US invasion already been rebuilt? > [@](#): > > Then you should explain what it is you meant to say because that’s what you’ve been calling for so far in this thread. You wrote: The apparent difference between you and me is that I believe that the US armed forces are generally a capable and professional organization, whose continued presence is vital for the reconstruction effort that the US is morally obligated to provide for, while you believe them to be nothing but thugs and bandits. > [@](#): > > America is not capable of rebuilding Iraq. I suppose, in America, that might be a reasonable excuse to not pay back your mortgage, but in this case, pretty despicable. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/75 "2008-07-16T20:26:34Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] I suppose, in America, that might be a reasonable excuse to not pay back your mortgage, but in this case, pretty despicable. [/QUOTE] Who said anything about not paying back a mortgage? Once we get out and stop fucking up the plumbing over there, we can send them money, with which they may hire contractors of their own choosing. Or they can squander our aid by using it for graft and incompetent builders. Whichever, it’ll then be _their_ choice. I happen to think think that the Iraqi’s should have a choice as to what becomes of their country. Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/76 "2008-07-16T20:37:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Once we get out and stop fucking up the plumbing over there, we can send them money, with which they may hire contractors of their own choosing. Or they can squander our aid by using it for graft and incompetent builders. Whichever, it’ll then be their choice. I happen to think think that the Iraqi’s should have a choice as to what becomes of their country. So you are saying that if the US unilaterally pulls out, Iraq will turn into a peaceful, pluralist, liberal democracy all of its’ own accord? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/77 "2008-07-16T20:40:32Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] So you are saying that if the US unilaterally pulls out, Iraq will turn into a peaceful, pluralist, liberal democracy all of its’ own accord? [/QUOTE] That’s their choice, not ours. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/78 "2008-07-16T20:44:32Z")
“Choice” would imply free will and a lack of coercion, which would only be possible in a peaceful democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/79 "2008-07-16T20:51:47Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] “Choice” would imply free will and a lack of coercion, which would only be possible in a peaceful democracy. [/QUOTE] 😕 A peaceful democracy is a prerequisite for choice making? What did our cavemen ancestors do instead of making choices? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/80 "2008-07-16T21:02:15Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] “Choice” would imply free will and a lack of coercion, which would only be possible in a peaceful democracy. [/QUOTE] Not so. Revolution and civil war are also matters of choice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585.md?page=5)