# How does the anti-war movement envision the state of Iraq post-withdrawal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585 "2008-07-15T17:54:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/81 "2008-07-16T21:04:23Z")
> [@](#): > > A peaceful democracy is a prerequisite for choice making? I don’t understand where you are going with this. By that line of reasoning, since the Iraqis have not thrown out the US occupation force, clearly, it is THEIR CHOICE that the US occupation force stays on. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/82 "2008-07-16T21:38:39Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] Has everything that has been destroyed by the US invasion already been rebuilt? [/Quote] No, but we’ve never seriously tried. We don’t actually care. Which is one major reason why we aren’t going to help Iraq no matter how long we stay or how many people we put there; **we are the bad guys**. We are the thugs that caused the damage in the first place. [QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] The apparent difference between you and me is that I believe that the US armed forces are generally a capable and professional organization, whose continued presence is vital for the reconstruction effort that the US is morally obligated to provide for, while you believe them to be nothing but thugs and bandits. [/quote] Thugs is exactly what they are; that’s why they are there in the first place. [QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] So you are saying that if the US unilaterally pulls out, Iraq will turn into a peaceful, pluralist, liberal democracy all of its’ own accord? [/QUOTE] It probably won’t no matter what happens; we’ve pretty well discredited democracy in that part of the world. But something like that is more likely to happen if we leave. You can’t heal stab wounds until the stabbing stops. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/83 "2008-07-16T21:51:50Z")
Wow, I never knew there were so many Canadians with a hard-on for getting Americans killed. Is that extra purchasing power really worth it? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2008, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/84 "2008-07-17T04:48:01Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] For example, if I break into your home, beat the snot out of you and burn your house down, your remedy, one would hope, should not stop at simply stopping me from continuing to beat you. [/QUOTE] Of course not. I’d also require that you finance the restoration of my home, and reimburse me for my medical expenses. I certainly wouldn’t want YOU to be personally delivering my medical treatment, OR anywhere within a thousand yards of me or my home, much less wielding a hammer for the _Extreme Makeover: Home Edition_ team. In fact, I’d probably want you in jail, or if you didn’t have any money in the bank, working at your real, not-assault-and-arson-related job (preferably in the next county), with your wages garnished to the maximum extent practicable. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2008, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/85 "2008-07-17T05:26:14Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] I don’t understand where you are going with this. By that line of reasoning, since the Iraqis have not thrown out the US occupation force, clearly, it is THEIR CHOICE that the US occupation force stays on. [/QUOTE] :dubious: By **that** line of reasoning, there is no such thing as rape if the man is physically stronger than the woman. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2008, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/86 "2008-07-17T05:32:50Z")
I don’t have a vision for a post-occupation Iraq. I basically don’t care. I used to hope maybe there wouldn’t be a civil war, but I’ve become indifferent about that now. If the insurgents can take the country, I say more power to them. Just wait until our guys are out of there. After that they can slug it out all they want. Neither side is any better than the other, so I don’t care who wins. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2008, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/87 "2008-07-17T05:40:56Z")
That is no recipe for victory, **Diogenes**! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2008, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/88 "2008-07-17T05:49:26Z")
Cutting and running is underrated. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2008, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/89 "2008-07-17T09:16:19Z")
> [@](#): > > For example, if I break into your home, beat the snot out of you and burn your house down, your remedy, one would hope, should not stop at simply stopping me from continuing to beat you. Actually, I would like you to stop beating me. You’re the one who’s making the argument that the remedy for beating somebody up is to keep hitting them. > [@](#): > > The apparent difference between you and me is that I believe that the US armed forces are generally a capable and professional organization, whose continued presence is vital for the reconstruction effort that the US is morally obligated to provide for, while you believe them to be nothing but thugs and bandits. In this, you are as wrong as you’ve been everywhere else in this thread. > [@](#): > > I can only conclude that you also have no interest in honest discussion and any further effort on my part would be a waste of time. What? You’re going to simply cut and run? Apply more resources. The question ultimately is whether you want to win or not. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2008, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/90 "2008-07-17T12:28:06Z")
> [@](#): > > In this, you are as wrong as you’ve been everywhere else in this thread. In what? That the US armed forces are thugs, or about your contention that they are thugs? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/91 "2008-07-17T15:48:38Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] That is no recipe for victory, **Diogenes**! [/QUOTE] All we have to do is keep killing them until they stop hating us. Worked great in 'Nam, didn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585/92 "2008-07-17T16:05:29Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] The apparent difference between you and me is that I believe that the US armed forces are generally a capable and professional organization, whose continued presence is vital for the reconstruction effort that the US is morally obligated to provide for, while you believe them to be nothing but thugs and bandits. [/QUOTE] Actually, they are both at once. That’s part of the problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-anti-war-movement-envision-the-state-of-iraq-post-withdrawal/456585.md?page=4)