# how does the Chinese criminal justice system work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 29, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909 "2009-12-29T15:30:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/21 "2010-01-01T22:46:51Z")
I have heard that the UK standard is really guilty until proven innocent, but that there were a lot of safeguards in effect to guarantee a fair trial, but if it came down to breaking a tie using the standard, the accused is guilty. Correct, or incorrect? Thanks, hh ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/22 "2010-01-01T22:59:16Z")
I’ve heard that it is impossible for a non-Chinese to sue a Chinese in a PRC court & win. True/false? ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/23 "2010-01-01T23:03:03Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I have heard that the UK standard is really guilty until proven innocent, but that there were a lot of safeguards in effect to guarantee a fair trial, but if it came down to breaking a tie using the standard, the accused is guilty. Correct, or incorrect? > > Thanks, > > hh Incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/24 "2010-01-02T01:24:57Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > I’ve heard that it is impossible for a non-Chinese to sue a Chinese in a PRC court & win. > > True/false? False. I’ve sued and won in Chinese courts. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/25 "2010-01-02T01:56:14Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I have heard that the UK standard is really guilty until proven innocent, but that there were a lot of safeguards in effect to guarantee a fair trial, but if it came down to breaking a tie using the standard, the accused is guilty. Correct, or incorrect? > > Thanks, > > hh Completely false. But, I’ve got to ask: heard from who? And what exactly does “breaking a tie” mean in the context of a criminal proceeding? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/26 "2010-01-02T05:10:01Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I have heard that the UK standard is really guilty until proven innocent, but that there were a lot of safeguards in effect to guarantee a fair trial, but if it came down to breaking a tie using the standard, the accused is guilty. Correct, or incorrect? > > Thanks, > > hh 1. There is no such thing as the “UK standard”. There is the law of England and Wales, law of Scotland, law of Northern Ireland, but no UK law. 2. In England and Wales, the prosecution has to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. If they fail to do so, the accused _must_ be let off. 3. Scotland has a similar provision, while N Ireland has almost identical situation to England. Source: AK84, Barrister-at-Law. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/27 "2010-01-02T05:20:37Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > False. I’ve sued and won in Chinese courts. Neat! Could you tell us more about it? Obviously, you don’t want to post anything that would deprive you of your anonymity - but is there any more you could tell us about the process? Was it something that a US lawyer would find more-or-less familiar? Was it a fair process, in your view? ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/28 "2010-01-02T13:39:07Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I have heard that the UK standard is really guilty until proven innocent, but that there were a lot of safeguards in effect to guarantee a fair trial, but if it came down to breaking a tie using the standard, the accused is guilty. Correct, or incorrect? Plenty of other folks have already addressed the validity of this, but I’m curious: _where_ are you hearing such things? And what other things have you heard about us? As an Englishman, I actually find it quite disturbing that people could think such a thing about us. Is this part of the educational system, or just water-cooler gossip? ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/29 "2010-01-02T17:06:48Z")
I’m also extremely interested in hearing how the idea of England being some kind of regressive state came from - particularly considering that we’ve had innocent until proven guilty as a component of our legal system for longer than the US has existed. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/30 "2010-01-03T11:04:58Z")
To be fair you have never had that idea, and niether has the US. What you do have is the idea of “he who asserts, must prove”, to whatever standard the court requires. A minor difference to be sure, but one which is real. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/31 "2010-01-03T13:00:15Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Neat! Could you tell us more about it? Obviously, you don’t want to post anything that would deprive you of your anonymity - but is there any more you could tell us about the process? Was it something that a US lawyer would find more-or-less familiar? Was it a fair process, in your view? It was a wrongful termination suit. I sued for compensation and was awarded about half of what I thought would be my best case scenario. So, a not bad result. Seemed reasonably fair and straight forward. Civil cases, especially at the lower level, are generally looking for something akin to arbitration. In fact, my understanding is that a lot of the cases I knew of brought about say 5 years ago now would just go to arbitration. Remember, this is a country where at least the concept is that the rights of society trump the individual (unlike the US ideal of the rights of the individual being paramount). ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/32 "2010-01-03T16:59:32Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Because of Napoleon conquering half of Western Europe, a lot of countries are modeled on the French system and not the Anglo system, which means no juries. > > The idea of “In dubio pro reo” (In case of doubt, decide in favour of the accused) is widespread also because it comes from the Roman system. It means that if the prosectur can’t conclusivly prove that the accused did commit the crime, the accused must be set free - presumption of innocence in other terms. > > And yes, there are justice systems outside the US. Many people think that the current state of the system on the US, esp. with electing prosecutors, plea deals, and the actual selection of juries, makes the system far less just than the European systems. > The problem is that the misconception that the only country with a real justice system is the US fuels the case of US refusing their citizens to be put in front of a court in any other country (along with that weird notion that allowing other countries somehow infringes on the rights of the US), which makes other countries a bit angry when US citizens break the law over there. Please come with actual facts about the U.S. The United States regularly puts its citizens up in front of other courts. The U.S. will extradite accused American citizens to other countries with which we have extradition treaties. However, what is very important in the United States is jurisdiction. We won’t extradite our citizens to a state that has no proper jurisdiction over a matter. And sorry, I know what this is about–if a United States military member is accused of committing a war crime overseas it is 100% not in the jurisdiction of some European government. You guys can claim “universal jurisdiction” all you want, be we’re a sovereign state and we absolutely do not have to accept it. I know at least one European country (France), will not under **any** circumstances extradite a citizen of France to another country to stand trial. For example if I’m a French citizen and murder someone in the United States, and am convicted and sentenced to life in prison and then escape back to France a year later, I’m essentially off scott free. France will not extradite its citizens under any circumstances. I don’t know the legalities in Israel, but I also don’t believe Israel will extradite its citizens. But let me correct the blatant misstatement in your post: the United States does allow its citizens to be tried in foreign courts, and we have many extradition treaties with many countries and we regularly extradite accused criminals who happen to be American citizens overseas to stand trial. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/33 "2010-01-03T17:48:36Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I don’t know the legalities in Israel, but I also don’t believe Israel will extradite its citizens. Israel will and has extradited its own citizens. It just won’t extradite to a potential death penalty. Incidentally, Israel has a common law system (as in the UK and the US) - but no juries. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/34 "2010-01-03T19:09:30Z")
Israel or at least the British mandate of Palestine, had the common law system, but IIRC the system was that of British India\*, as opposed to England and Wales itself, although of course the law of British India was based pretty much totally on the system of England and Wales. British India did have juries, but it was a land where the “amature justice” was provided by them was always seen with suspicion, none of the successor states of British India retain the jury system, Pakistan was the last holdout, until the 70’s. I am therefore not surprised that Isreal does not have juries. - After the British crown took over the Government of India, it established substantive and procedural laws derived from the common law of England and Wales which were enforced in India. When the British occupied new territorys after that, they most times simply took the existing Indian law, renamed it and put it inforce in the new territory. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/35 "2010-01-03T22:13:03Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > And sorry, I know what this is about–if a United States military member is accused of committing a war crime overseas it is 100% not in the jurisdiction of some European government. You guys can claim “universal jurisdiction” all you want, be we’re a sovereign state and we absolutely do not have to accept it. Is there a specific case you are referring to, where a member of the US military was accused of committing a war crime overseas, and a European government claimed “universal jurisdiction”? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/36 "2010-01-04T03:56:02Z")
In Thailand, there is no presumption of innocence – or of guilt. The defendant is a suspect whose guilt or innocence shall be established in a trial. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/37 "2010-01-04T04:03:57Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I know at least one European country (France), will not under **any** circumstances extradite a citizen of France to another country to stand trial. For example if I’m a French citizen and murder someone in the United States, and am convicted and sentenced to life in prison and then escape back to France a year later, I’m essentially off scott free. France will not extradite its citizens under any circumstances. As I understand it, France will not extradite its citizens, but can try them in French courts for crimes committed abroad. So if you’re a French citizen, commit a crime in another country and then go back to France, it’s quite likely that you’ll have to face justice. In your particular example (you’ve already been sentenced in another country and then escape) I’m not sure what would be done. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/38 "2010-01-04T22:54:00Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > As I understand it, France will not extradite its citizens, but can try them in French courts for crimes committed abroad. So if you’re a French citizen, commit a crime in another country and then go back to France, it’s quite likely that you’ll have to face justice. > > In your particular example (you’ve already been sentenced in another country and then escape) I’m not sure what would be done. Whoopie. French “justice”.:dubious: What’s a “Life sentence” for murder in France? 10 years? 15? ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/39 "2010-01-05T00:32:10Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Completely false. > > But, I’ve got to ask: heard from who? And what exactly does “breaking a tie” mean in the context of a criminal proceeding? A. Heard it from a Criminal Justice professor (In America), in a classroom. B. Breaking a tie, in the sense that if the evidence is equal, more or less, and/or the justices, jury, what have you, are evenly divided on a vote for guilt, innocence. hh ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909/40 "2010-01-05T00:38:11Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > 1. There is no such thing as the “UK standard”. There is the law of England and Wales, law of Scotland, law of Northern Ireland, but no UK law. Yeah, why would I think United Kingdom? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-chinese-criminal-justice-system-work/522909.md?page=3)