# How does the idea of armed guards in every school play in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 23, 2012, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903 "2012-12-23T06:32:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/81 "2012-12-24T22:34:08Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Has an armed teacher ever stopped a killer - internal or external? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/82 "2012-12-24T22:40:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What part of “the same training as the FBI” were you confused over? This is the same process that airline pilots go through now. And yes it requires recurrency training. It also involves more than just firing at targets. And if they miss the targets? uh huh. does this happen a lot at the FBI? Does it happen on airliners? [/quote] The FBI are police - duh. And we don’t make training for pilots a substitute for banning guns on airplanes. Or does the NRA support carrying on planes for the safety of passengers? That is more or less equivalent. If a terrorist did get a gun on a plane, then yes, the pilot would be the first to be attacked. > [@](#): > > There is nothing John Wayne about it. Your churlish response aside, there is no rational reason why the same skill-sets of an officer of the law can’t be imparted onto a teacher. If I were a cop, I’d be feeling very insulted. Cops go to the academy. Cops wash out. Not everyone can do it, and my understanding is that firearms training, especially in the context they use it, is non-trivial. How long do you want to train the teachers? > [@](#): > > What you’re implying is that a college educated person can’t be screened and trained with the exact same skills as an FBI agent. It was the same argument made against airline pilots who carry guns on the plane. Police skills are not a function of education. > [@](#): > > If a well educated person can’t be screened and trained to defend children against a mass murderer (in real time) what reasoning do you have for a less educated person performing the same task? Either you think teachers are stupid or there is some kind of magic in the training course that applying the letters “FBI” grants. I know lots of people with PhDs who you wouldn’t want near a gun in a crisis situation. Including me, probably. I was unaware that the Marines required a BS for entry into basic training. The smarts required to be a teacher have nothing to do with the kind of smarts required to be cool under fire and do the right thing. That’s hard enough for even cops to do. Especially because teachers would be unlikely to ever be in the situation - even plenty of cops never fire their weapons. You didn’t respond to my point about the danger of putting guns into schools relative to the external threat. Do you think there are more invasions than killings of people known to the shooter? You also didn’t answer my point about kids knowing full well who is carrying. Your fantasy is that a teacher who hasn’t fired a gun in a year is going to surprise and take out a prepared and suicidal killer - possibly wearing armor. Try to think about the real world, not movies and video games. Plus, ever hear of an arms race? That’s what we’d have. In always makes sense to think about responding to your opponent doing the best he can for his side, not his stupidest action. Any killer would know teachers are armed, and would prepare himself accordingly. Next thing would be your type saying all teachers should teach in body armor - kids too. Is that the schools you want? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/83 "2012-12-24T22:45:28Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Assistant principal. > [1997 Pearl High School shooting - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting) And a US Army Reserve Commander. Hey, I have no problem with people like that keeping guns in their trucks. He’s got the right kind of training - more than some random teacher is ever going to have. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/84 "2012-12-24T22:46:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. There haven’t been any shootings by teachers or any stealing of teachers’ guns either, like people here are prophesizing. Most kids are not going to want to steal a gun - not right off a teacher. But do you deny that the kids know? (If not, they are one stupid bunch of kids.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/85 "2012-12-24T22:51:12Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > Just curious as to what people are thinking the differences would be with “armed police officers” as opposed to the already existing (in at least some schools) police officers assigned to the school as resource officers? > > I know in theory, the resource officer isn’t supposed to be at the school the whole day, but at my high school, we had two of them, and one of them was \*always \*there. > > We had two massive and territorial gangs assigned to the same school, as well as pretty consistent racial violence, and those officers were on patrol from the moment the doors opened to when the school shut down after clubs and sports practices at night. > > I understand that most elementary schools don’t have resource officers, and that most? upper grade schools didn’t have them, but it never bothered me that the officers were there - I was much more likely to get killed in a stampede during one of the gang fights than by police with guns in the hallways. > > So (other than the fact that it’s a stupid suggestion that won’t really solve anything) what is the difference between existing resource officers and the armed police/guard in every school suggestion? My understanding is that these officers are there to protect students (and teachers) from the kinds of students you sometimes get in high schools. There was a shooting in the hallway of my very large and not terribly urban high school over 40 years ago. And these cops also can get info on gangs and drugs. Very good use of taxpayer resources. But they are not around to protect the school from outsiders. (I get that you know this, but some people seem not to.) The reason that elementary schools don’t have cops is that the kids are not a threat. Adding a guard there is very different from in-school cops, and would be for a very different purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/86 "2012-12-24T22:51:56Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Most kids are not going to want to steal a gun - not right off a teacher. But do you deny that the kids know? (If not, they are one stupid bunch of kids.) Do you know who around you is carrying? In Newtown shooting, the principal and school psychologist ran out to confront the shooter, unarmed. Do you think they may have had a chance if they were armed? Do you think they would have been a menace to the school if they were armed? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/87 "2012-12-24T22:54:02Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And a US Army Reserve Commander. Hey, I have no problem with people like that keeping guns in their trucks. He’s got the right kind of training - more than some random teacher is ever going to have. And if he had been allowed to have it on his person, the other seven might not have been wounded and the shooter given a chance to get away. Most states require some level of training for a permit. Maybe there should be a federal requirement for a specific level rather than the patchwork that exists. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/88 "2012-12-24T22:54:06Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’m surprised the suggestion was police (big government) and not some private security firm his friend runs (free market). > > And locking the doors sounds like a bad idea. Imagine everyone trying to run away from the crazed gunmen and finding a locked door. Actually, current lockdown practices involve locking the doors to individual rooms, turning out the lights, and hiding, rather than trying to flee the building. Again, this will differ depending on building construction. All the schools I went to (in California) had multiple buildings, each with 4-12 classrooms, connected by covered walkways, and there would have been no way short of building a wall around the entire property to lock the place up. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/89 "2012-12-25T00:13:09Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And if they miss the targets? They shoot again. The alternative is a stack of dead children. > [@Voyager](#): > > The FBI are police - duh. And we don’t make training for pilots a substitute for banning guns on airplanes. and I specified the same training which incidentally is what the pilots go through. duuuuuuh. > [@Voyager](#): > > If I were a cop, I’d be feeling very insulted. Cops go to the academy. Cops wash out. Not everyone can do it, and my understanding is that firearms training, especially in the context they use it, is non-trivial. How long do you want to train the teachers? I specified that teachers would be screened and trained with the same process as the FBI. > [@Voyager](#): > > Police skills are not a function of education. That’s just a pointless statement. That’s like saying a teacher can’t learn CPR because it’s an EMT’s job. There will never be a case of immediate response from police. The only way to effectively deal with a shooter is to take them down. > [@Voyager](#): > > I know lots of people with PhDs who you wouldn’t want near a gun in a crisis situation. Including me, probably. I was unaware that the Marines required a BS for entry into basic training. The smarts required to be a teacher have nothing to do with the kind of smarts required to be cool under fire and do the right thing. That’s hard enough for even cops to do. Especially because teachers would be unlikely to ever be in the situation - even plenty of cops never fire their weapons. I know cops who shouldn’t be near a gun in a non-crisis situation. I never suggested mandatory involvement by all teachers . I get that you don’t have the emotional stability to deal with it. Nobody is forcing you. > [@Voyager](#): > > You didn’t respond to my point about the danger of putting guns into schools relative to the external threat. Do you think there are more invasions than killings of people known to the shooter? You also didn’t answer my point about kids knowing full well who is carrying. Yes I did. You can’t see a concealed weapon nor is it accessible to anybody but the user. And if you knew anything about the training a federal agent receives you’d know that it involves how to defend oneself. > [@Voyager](#): > > Your fantasy is that a teacher who hasn’t fired a gun in a year is going to surprise and take out a prepared and suicidal killer - possibly wearing armor. Try to think about the real world, not movies and video games. Your fantasy fears are not a problem in the real world where it’s done right now in schools. And just like in the real world Federal Agents and commercial pilots receive recurrency training. This is something that trained people do to re-certify each year and they are expected to log time at a range as well. It’s not rocket science. ---
**Author:** ![gunchris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@gunchris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gunchris)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/90 "2012-12-25T02:48:51Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And if they miss the targets? I carry high capacity magazines for exactly that, if I miss the bad guy I try again. ---
**Author:** ![gunchris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@gunchris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gunchris)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/91 "2012-12-25T03:02:56Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Police skills are not a function of education. Police are not ninjas! most of their training is about laws, searches, proper back up of partners. Police get killed more often due to having to cuff/search - as a LTC ( license to carry ) I do not worry about that stuff, I stop the threat & try to stay alive. All your bogus arguments were bought up time and time again as America moved to shall issue concealed carry from may issue - in every state that has changed for freedom you have been proven wrong. > [@Voyager](#): > > Your fantasy is that a teacher who hasn’t fired a gun in a year is going to surprise and take out a prepared and suicidal killer - possibly wearing armor. Try to think about the real world, not movies and video games. :smack: school shooters are not super ninja terrorist, there idiot doped up on xanax and meds losers who don’t know strategy/tactics. They walk in a door you shoot them, its hard to miss under those circumstances. Same with a pilot, how much training do you need to be able to shoot someone coming through a door? You’re the one who needs to stop playing vid games and stop watching those die hard movies :rolleyes: I come from a law enforcement family, many many civilians are better shots and practice far more often then cops! My brother never carries off duty because his agency prohibits drinking beer while packing. Also if he is packing he is duty bound to arrest if he see’s a crime. He leaves it home 99% of his off duty time…driving his brother nuts I assure you. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/92 "2012-12-25T15:39:43Z")
> [@gunchris](#): > > A famous anti gun journalist from the eighties shot some teens who were trespassing, the local teens always used his pool, so he shot them,with his unregistered pistol. > His name was Carl something, I want to say Ronin or Roman but I cant remember. > Any our liberal hero anti gun journalist really hated that other people had guns. > Lots of these anti gun liberals are the same way. > > They cant control their temper. They know that they will fly off the handle and shoot a teen for pushing boundaries. > > So they use their feverish imagination to lead themselves to think that everyone else is as unhinged as he/she is. > > All anti gun politcritters are protected by armed security of some sort. > > All people against armed adults on school grounds, whether they are self aware enough to admit it to themselves or not - want people to have to fight armed killers with their bare hands while the 911 call center records the screams of the dying. > > I will not give up my rights because terrified idiots scream for more bigger better Big Brother. I suspect there was more to the story than that. It’s smart to pay attention to the odds, my friend, in poker as well as in life. The odds of crazies becoming mass murderers are lowered if you prevent the crazies from having guns. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/93 "2012-12-25T15:52:24Z")
> [@gunchris](#): > > A famous anti gun journalist from the eighties shot some teens who were trespassing, the local teens always used his pool, so he shot them,with his unregistered pistol. > His name was Carl something, I want to say Ronin or Roman but I cant remember. > Any our liberal hero anti gun journalist really hated that other people had guns. > Lots of these anti gun liberals are the same way. [Carl Rowan](http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1876&dat=19880615&id=Bz4sAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cc4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6879,6595637), and yeah, he was a bit of a hypocrite. So? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/94 "2012-12-25T16:05:32Z")
Events sometimes defy the odds, but if you stay on the right side of probability you will come out ahead in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/95 "2012-12-25T16:28:40Z")
Obama’s kids go to a school with guards. 11 to be exact. Plus the O kids have Secret Service details. I would expect any school these days to have cameras and a few security guards. There’s no excuse not to. I think nearly every big city school has them. [http://now.msn.com/obama-daughters-attend-school-with-11-armed-guards](http://now.msn.com/obama-daughters-attend-school-with-11-armed-guards) > [@](#): > > Sidwell Friends, a Washington, D.C. area private school, has 11 armed security guards and is apparently hiring an additional police officer. The reason that the not-at-all biased staff at Breitbart is bringing this to everyone’s attention is because Sasha and Malia Obama attend Sidwell Friends, as did other First Kids like Chelsea Clinton, ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/96 "2012-12-25T16:34:48Z")
Another NRA member checking in. I don’t have a problem with the idea per se (one armed guard is better than nobody armed) – however it’s not enough. I don’t think _every_ staff member should be armed, but one guard for an entire school isn’t going to be of much use when some kid opens fire in the gym and the guard’s clear across the school in the west wing bathroom. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/97 "2012-12-25T16:40:01Z")
> [@gunchris](#): > > for a message board that makes a claim it is fighting ignorance there seems to be an overabundance of it WRT gun rights issues. And now you’re here to post your anti-liberal _ad hominem_ attacks in nearly every post you make to convince us of the error of our collective thinking. We should listen to you _why_ again? Try posting without the right wing screeds and perhaps someone will engage you in relevant discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/98 "2012-12-25T17:48:39Z")
> [@gunchris](#): > > I come from a law enforcement family, many many civilians are better shots and practice far more often then cops! My brother never carries off duty because his agency prohibits drinking beer while packing. Also if he is packing he is duty bound to arrest if he see’s a crime. There’s a lot of truth in this. I’ve met a fair number of gun enthusiasts over the years and their skillsets are pretty impressive. These are professional people (including school teachers) who go to competitions and/or spend a lot of time at the range. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/99 "2012-12-25T17:59:24Z")
> [@gunchris](#): > > school shooters are not super ninja terrorist, there idiot doped up on xanax and meds losers who don’t know strategy/tactics. They walk in a door you shoot them, its hard to miss under those circumstances. Except at Columbine, where the on-duty guard shot and missed. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/100 "2012-12-25T18:12:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There’s a lot of truth in this. I’ve met a fair number of gun enthusiasts over the years and their skillsets are pretty impressive. These are professional people (including school teachers) who go to competitions and/or spend a lot of time at the range. Paper targets don’t shoot back. As a combat veteran and someone who worked with a city police force, I would not trust myself to remain calm under fire. Internet Tough Guys who have posted here are deluding themselves if they think they are immune to the effects of adrenalin, and can coolly get off that crucial head shot on a guy wearing body armor. While I can punch out the center of a paper target all day long, the chances of hitting a moving target (and one that is likely a sociopath who is not feeling any stress whatsoever) that is shooting at me rapidly approach zero. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903.md?page=6)