# How does the idea of armed guards in every school play in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 23, 2012, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903 "2012-12-23T06:32:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/101 "2012-12-25T18:26:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Except at Columbine, where the on-duty guard shot and missed. The guard was in a parking lot wearing a bright yellow shirt. All he managed to do was draw their fire to him at a distance. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/102 "2012-12-25T18:51:26Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Paper targets don’t shoot back. > > As a combat veteran and someone who worked with a city police force, I would not trust myself to remain calm under fire. Internet Tough Guys who have posted here are deluding themselves if they think they are immune to the effects of adrenalin, and can coolly get off that crucial head shot on a guy wearing body armor. While I can punch out the center of a paper target all day long, the chances of hitting a moving target (and one that is likely a sociopath who is not feeling any stress whatsoever) that is shooting at me rapidly approach zero. No, paper targets don’t shoot back. Neither does a stack of dead bodies. Adrenaline is a two way street and just as easily affects the shooter’s aim who has a building full of unarmed people to choose from and all the time in the world before the police arrive. The difference is that a person with the same training as a police officer stands a better chance of hitting the shooter who now has to defend against multiple armed people. How many mass-killers have had real training with a gun? These are not seal-team-6 ninjas that commit these crimes. They’re crazy people with little or no skills. If you think you stand a better chance of survival cowering in a puddle of your own urine against a shooter versus a trained group of armed teachers then make your case. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/103 "2012-12-25T19:31:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The guard was in a parking lot wearing a bright yellow shirt. All he managed to do was draw their fire to him at a distance. Nope. From the wikipedia article: > [@](#): > > A Jefferson County Sheriff’s Deputy, Neil Gardner, was assigned to the high school as a uniformed and armed school resource officer. At the time of the shooting, Gardner was on his lunch break in his patrol car. He was just northwest of the school, watching students in the Smokers’ Pit in Clement Park. Around 11:23, the custodian radioed him, requesting assistance in the “back lot”. While on his way, Gardner heard on his radio that a female was down. While leaving the car, he heard in another call, “Neil, there’s a shooter in the school”.[24] > > Harris immediately fired at Gardner, who was wearing a distinctive yellow uniform, as he exited the vehicle.[24] Gardner returned fire at Harris and Klebold, Emphasis added. It apparently isn’t “hard to miss”, as that poster said. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/104 "2012-12-25T19:39:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Nope. From the wikipedia article: > Emphasis added. It apparently isn’t “hard to miss”, as that poster said. Your cite is exactly what I posted. He was at a distance from the school, wearing a yellow shirt. Nobody was hit because of the distance. The shooters had no problems hitting the students who were up close. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/105 "2012-12-25T19:54:12Z")
TMTR for now, but to answer the OP: Some people like it; they point out that our airports and banks have guards, shouldn’t our children have them too? On the other hand there are: [ul] [li]people who hate guns period and are appalled at the idea of having them in schools.[/li][li]people who point out that whatever the merits, it would be impossibly expensive, when our schools are already desperately underfunded.[/li][li]people who are so anti-government that they see it as part of a plot to desensitize Americans to martial law.[/li][/ul]So my guess, it ain’t gonna’ fly. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/106 "2012-12-25T20:02:06Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > TMTR for now, but to answer the OP: Some people like it; they point out that our airports and banks have guards, shouldn’t our children have them too? On the other hand there are: > [ul] > [li]people who hate guns period and are appalled at the idea of having them in schools.[/li][li]people who point out that whatever the merits, it would be impossibly expensive, when our schools are already desperately underfunded.[/li][li]people who are so anti-government that they see it as part of a plot to desensitize Americans to martial law.[/li][/ul]So my guess, it ain’t gonna’ fly. It’s already flying. The only question is how many more school systems will opt for it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/107 "2012-12-25T20:27:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Your cite is exactly what I posted. He was at a distance from the school, wearing a yellow shirt. Nobody was hit because of the distance. The shooters had no problems hitting the students who were up close. No. You posted that: > [@](#): > > All he managed to do was draw their fire to him at a distance. That’s not all he managed to do. He fired back. So, not “hard to miss” as the poster said. It was quite easy to miss in this circumstance, and any other circumstance when the guard happens to be not near the shooters. That is not to say that such guards have no purpose. But the poster makes it sound like it’s an “if a then b” situation. Here we had a, but not b. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/108 "2012-12-25T20:34:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, paper targets don’t shoot back. Neither does a stack of dead bodies. Adrenaline is a two way street and just as easily affects the shooter’s aim who has a building full of unarmed people to choose from and all the time in the world before the police arrive. > > The difference is that a person with the same training as a police officer stands a better chance of hitting the shooter who now has to defend against multiple armed people. How many mass-killers have had real training with a gun? > > These are not seal-team-6 ninjas that commit these crimes. They’re crazy people with little or no skills. If you think you stand a better chance of survival cowering in a puddle of your own urine against a shooter versus a trained group of armed teachers then make your case. The problem with your first premise is that most of these sociopaths are described as cool, calm and methodical in their executions. In other words, classic sociopathic behavior. If you don’t feel emotion or care about the consequences of what you’re doing, or are living inside your own head, the adrenalin rush is likely not going to happen or will be minimized. I can’t imagine a world where we are arming teachers and librarians and restaurant wait staff and college students because we’ve just given up on controlling weapon access for assholes, and not dialing back the types of weapons that are available without permits. Because it doesn’t stop with teachers; you would have to arm everyone who comes in contact with large numbers of the public: doctors, musicians, the girl who serves you popcorn at the movies, et al. While the NRA sees nothing wrong with this apocalyptic vision of America, I and most others want no part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/109 "2012-12-25T20:39:05Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I can’t imagine a world where we are arming teachers and librarians and restaurant wait staff and college students because we’ve just given up on controlling weapon access for assholes, and not dialing back the types of weapons that are available without permits. Because it doesn’t stop with teachers; you would have to arm everyone who comes in contact with large numbers of the public: doctors, musicians, the girl who serves you popcorn at the movies, et al. While the NRA sees nothing wrong with this apocalyptic vision of America, I and most others want no part of it. Two states, and a school district in Texas, allow concealed-carry licensed teachers to be armed in K-12 schools. 300+ colleges and universities (welcome to the bunch, University of Colorado) allow students and faculty who are concealed-carry licensed to be armed on school premises. Please show me the negative effects of this. You know, apart from you “wanting no part of it”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/110 "2012-12-25T20:40:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No. You posted that: > > That’s not all he managed to do. He fired back. So, not “hard to miss” as the poster said. It was quite easy to miss in this circumstance, and any other circumstance when the guard happens to be not near the shooters. > > That is not to say that such guards have no purpose. But the poster makes it sound like it’s an “if a then b” situation. Here we had a, but not b. sorry, all he managed to \*\*accomplish \*\*is that he drew their fire. He was too far away to do any good. You should have figured out my meaning when I said the shooters had no problems hitting the students but not the guard. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/111 "2012-12-25T20:45:42Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > The problem with your first premise is that most of these sociopaths are described as cool, calm and methodical in their executions. In other words, classic sociopathic behavior. If you don’t feel emotion or care about the consequences of what you’re doing, or are living inside your own head, the adrenalin rush is likely not going to happen or will be minimized. And yet they kill themselves before any real threat appears. > [@Chefguy](#): > > I can’t imagine a world where we are arming teachers and librarians and restaurant wait staff and college students because we’ve just given up on controlling weapon access for assholes, and not dialing back the types of weapons that are available without permits. Because it doesn’t stop with teachers; you would have to arm everyone who comes in contact with large numbers of the public: doctors, musicians, the girl who serves you popcorn at the movies, et al. While the NRA sees nothing wrong with this apocalyptic vision of America, I and most others want no part of it. I can’t imagine a world where we set aside killing zones so crazy people have free reign. Despite the fact that we successfully guard all kinds of institutions we go out of our way to avoid protecting schools and children. again If you think you stand a better chance of survival cowering in a puddle of your own urine against a shooter versus a trained group of armed teachers then make your case. All you’ve done is a declare it’s not possible when it’s already being done. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/112 "2012-12-25T20:46:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > sorry, all he managed to \*\*accomplish \*\*is that he drew their fire. He was too far away to do any good. Well, I’m glad you agree, then, that it’s not “hard to miss”. That’s my only point. > [@](#): > > You should have figured out my meaning when I said the shooters had no problems hitting the students but not the guard. Nope. It’s not my job to do anything more than read what you wrote. If you meant something else, you should have posted something else. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/113 "2012-12-26T02:18:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, I’m glad you agree, then, that it’s not “hard to miss”. That’s my only point. > Nope. It’s not my job to do anything more than read what you wrote. If you meant something else, you should have posted something else. I find it difficult to believe you didn’t understand that I implied they were too far away for accurate use of the weapons. I think you’re being deliberate obtuse but consider yourself properly informed of what I meant. Your point of dissagreemment with the idea that it’s hard to miss is not established by the cite you gave. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/114 "2012-12-26T02:27:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I find it difficult to believe you didn’t understand that I implied they were too far away for accurate use of the weapons. I think you’re being deliberate obtuse but consider yourself properly informed of what I meant. Your point of dissagreemment with the idea that it’s hard to miss is not established by the cite you gave. Sorry, but my understanding of what you originally posted was that he drew their fire and, because he was so distinctive, they shot him. How far away he was wasn’t mentioned, so that didn’t factor into it for me. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/115 "2012-12-26T03:27:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Two states, and a school district in Texas, allow concealed-carry licensed teachers to be armed in K-12 schools. 300+ colleges and universities (welcome to the bunch, University of Colorado) allow students and faculty who are concealed-carry licensed to be armed on school premises. > > Please show me the negative effects of this. You know, apart from you “wanting no part of it”. As you stated in post 65, though, we have no idea how many people are actually carrying guns at these schools. Maybe nobody is. Maybe that’s why there haven’t been “negative effects.” You don’t have any real data to work with. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/116 "2012-12-26T03:33:36Z")
> [@C3](#): > > As you stated in post 65, though, we have no idea how many people are actually carrying guns at these schools. Maybe nobody is. Maybe that’s why there haven’t been “negative effects.” You don’t have any real data to work with. They are allowed to bring guns to schools if they have a concealed-carry license. You have no way to know whether they do or not. That is how it should be. Why do you think that if the same thing is allowed in other states the result would be different? ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/117 "2012-12-26T03:49:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > They are allowed to bring guns to schools if they have a concealed-carry license. You have no way to know whether they do or not. That is how it should be. Why do you think that if the same thing is allowed in other states the result would be different? I understand what you’re saying. My point is that if we have no idea whether any of these teachers & students who are allowed to carry guns are actually carrying guns, we have no data to use to judge if carrying a gun to school is safe or not. If none of them are actually carrying, or even a very small number of people are, then of course we’re not seeing any negative effects - things like guns being stolen from them, innocent people being shot, mistaken shootings, etc. Without those numbers, your argument that guns in school aren’t going to result in these things is baseless because we don’t know if there are actually any guns in these schools - only that people are allowed to bring them if they choose. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/118 "2012-12-26T03:54:30Z")
> [@C3](#): > > I understand what you’re saying. My point is that if we have no idea whether any of these teachers & students who are allowed to carry guns are actually carrying guns, we have no data to use to judge if carrying a gun to school is safe or not. If none of them are actually carrying, or even a very small number of people are, then of course we’re not seeing any negative effects - things like guns being stolen from them, innocent people being shot, mistaken shootings, etc. Without those numbers, your argument that guns in school aren’t going to result in these things is baseless because we don’t know if there are actually any guns in these schools - only that people are allowed to bring them if they choose. We have data that allowing teachers to be armed in school has no negative effects in those states. So why such hysterical objections to the proposal to allow the same thing in other states? ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/119 "2012-12-26T04:05:29Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Obama’s kids go to a school with guards. 11 to be exact. Plus the O kids have Secret Service details. > > I would expect any school these days to have cameras and a few security guards. There’s no excuse not to. I think nearly every big city school has them. > > [http://now.msn.com/obama-daughters-attend-school-with-11-armed-guards](http://now.msn.com/obama-daughters-attend-school-with-11-armed-guards) I recently noted this on [msn.com](http://msn.com). Apparently the Obamas see this as suitable protection regardless of where they stand personally on gun control. And apparently the school must have heard something Mr. La Pierre said if they are considering an additional guard. It does seem bizarre the lengths we go to to guard inanimate things like banks when our value as a healthy country lies in the health of our children. A number of influential and wealthy people’s children have attended this school. I can’t understand why anyone would think middle- or lower-class children are less valued or worthy of the kind of protection these parents think is necessary for their children. I don’t see it as an either this or that issue but rather one where we should be combining health and law-enforcement resources in a way that proves that we care more about saving children’s lives than we do about winning arguments pro and con. I think when I was raising my little ones, if people had said they had ideas that could improve their safety in school, I would’ve been all for it rather than argue on principle or hypotheticals. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903/120 "2012-12-26T04:18:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > We have data that allowing teachers to be armed in school has no negative effects in those states. So why such hysterical objections to the proposal to allow the same thing in other states? What you’re proposing is different than what the NRA is proposing. They want armed guards in every school. Some people have gone further and stated they want teachers to go through some sort of training course and carry weapons. This is what people are reacting to (“hysterically”?), not your idea. All you’re proposing is that we publicize that some people _may_ be carrying. It’s possible that some of them will be, but I think what’s more probable is that there will be a lot of publicity about the new policy but few, if any, teachers will actually participate. What you’re arguing in this thread is that people shouldn’t worry about what the NRA is proposing (or those further proposals) because there are already tons of guns in school! In those states that allow it! And, see? No problems! But your conclusions aren’t based on any data. We have no idea if actually having guns in teachers’ hands would or would not result in things like guns being stolen or people being shot mistakenly because we have no idea if any teachers actually have a gun strapped to their hip during class, only that there are places where that’s allowed. Maybe there are statistics out there that back up your argument and maybe there aren’t, but just saying that we’ll never know and that’s how it should be does not support your argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-idea-of-armed-guards-in-every-school-play-in-the-us/644903.md?page=7)