# How does the IRS verify a church's validity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 3, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548 "2008-12-03T19:05:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/1 "2008-12-03T19:05:01Z")
(For tax-exempt status) Do they actually investigate, in person? These are what I understand to be the criteria: A church must have: 1. ``` A distinct legal existence ``` 2. ``` A recognized creed and form of worship ``` 3. ``` A definite and distinct ecclesiastical government ``` 4. ``` A formal code of doctrine and discipline ``` 5. ``` A distinct religious history ``` 6. ``` A membership not associated with any other church or denomination ``` 7. ``` An organization of ordained ministers ``` 8. ``` Ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed studies ``` 9. ``` A literature of its own ``` 10. ``` Established places of worship ``` 11. ``` Regular congregations ``` 12. ``` Regular religious services ``` 13. ``` Sunday schools for religious instruction of the young ``` 14. ``` Schools for the preparation of its ministers. ``` Some of these things seem pretty difficult to verify. For example, how do you determine that someone isn’t going to another church? (#6) And really, what’s so wrong with going to two different churches? And why must the church have Sunday school? And how do you define “a literature of its own”? I understand that these things by nature are difficult to verify, but _how_ do they verify? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/2 "2008-12-03T19:22:16Z")
Here’s the IRS publication, “Tax Guide for Churches and Religious Organizations” (in PDF) > **[p1828.pdf](https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf)** > > 605.48 KB From that: > [@](#): > > Churches and religious organizations, like many other charitable organizations, qualify for exemption from federal income tax under IRC section 501(c)(3) and are generally eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions. > To qualify for tax-exempt status, such an organization must meet the following requirements (covered in greater detail throughout this publication): > > the organization must be organized and operated exclusively for religious, educational, scientific, or other charitable purposes, > > net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any private individual or shareholder, > > no substantial part of its activity may be attempting to influence legislation, > > the organization may not intervene in political campaigns, and > > the organization’s purposes and activities may not be illegal or violate fundamental public policy. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/3 "2008-12-03T19:34:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Here’s the IRS publication, “Tax Guide for Churches and Religious Organizations” (in PDF) > > [http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf](http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf) > > From that: It seems like it’d be pretty easy to just start my own church. There are store-front congregations all over L.A., and they don’t seem to be under any particular larger sect or organization. They just seem to be some guy who put on his best suit and invited his friends and family to come around with tambourines. I’ve wondered if I can move into a place like that, start my own similar church, and then deduct the rent and utilities, etc. I could invite my friends over to drink beer on Friday nights, pontificate on something, and call it a religious service. (Maybe I could even deduct the cost of the beer.) My question is: How does the IRS know the difference? ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/4 "2008-12-03T19:35:35Z")
So what’s the short answer to why we allow this particular exemption in the US? Is it common in other industrialized countries? Is it in order to not discourage and therefore encourage religion? Some churches amass a huge amount of wealth, mainly, I believe, in property holdings. In general are they expempt from property taxes too? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/5 "2008-12-03T19:46:36Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > So what’s the short answer to why we allow this particular exemption in the US? Is it common in other industrialized countries? Is it in order to not discourage and therefore encourage religion? Some churches amass a huge amount of wealth, mainly, I believe, in property holdings. In general are they expempt from property taxes too? The Catholic church holds huge amount of property around the world, and probably makes a good deal of money from renting. I guess property taxes would depend on local laws, and how the property is used. But Scientology somehow got religious tax-exempt status simply by being highly litigious. ---
**Author:** ![Solfy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Solfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Solfy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/6 "2008-12-03T20:10:21Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > It seems like it’d be pretty easy to just start my own church. There are store-front congregations all over L.A., and they don’t seem to be under any particular larger sect or organization. They just seem to be some guy who put on his best suit and invited his friends and family to come around with tambourines. I’ve wondered if I can move into a place like that, start my own similar church, and then deduct the rent and utilities, etc. I could invite my friends over to drink beer on Friday nights, pontificate on something, and call it a religious service. (Maybe I could even deduct the cost of the beer.) > > My question is: How does the IRS know the difference? There was a [local case](http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08255/911077-59.stm)recently where someone decided that their swingers club is actually a “Church of Spiritual Humanism.” (previously known as “Swingers Palace”) Not many churches charge a cover for their “midnight masses” and include lots of sex. There’s a picture floating around the web of the “minister” and his wife, but it’s NSFW. I don’t know if they tried to get non-profit status. I don’t know about the IRS, but the local zoning board had to work for several months to get them shut down after multiple complaints by neighbors of running a business in a residential property. If it was that hard for local authorities to prove that the place wasn’t a church, I think it would be that much harder for the IRS to monitor shady “churches.” ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/7 "2008-12-03T21:19:10Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > So what’s the short answer to why we allow this particular exemption in the US? Is it common in other industrialized countries? Is it in order to not discourage and therefore encourage religion? Some churches amass a huge amount of wealth, mainly, I believe, in property holdings. In general are they expempt from property taxes too? Short answer: Not because it encourages religious activity, but because they (like non-religious 501c3 orgs) promote community activity and involvment, which is an essential ingredient in any free society. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/8 "2008-12-03T21:29:54Z")
Well, historically in Canada after the European invasions at least, many churches were granted land for free when townships were set up. I believe that this ownership has simply carried into the present. But whether new churches can still get granted land for free, I suspect not. Other than that, they’re basically charitable non-profit organizations. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/9 "2008-12-03T21:38:06Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > My question is: How does the IRS know the difference? So long as you’re not making a profit, helping political candidates, lobbying, or breaking the law, why would the IRS care? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/10 "2008-12-03T21:45:50Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > So long as you’re not making a profit, helping political candidates, lobbying, or breaking the law, why would the IRS care? Why would he even want to call it a church? That sounds like any other fraternal organization out there (all of which are non-profits with the same benefits - if not more - than a church)? Oh, and non-profits can make all the money they want (as a direct result of their operations) - they just can’t distribute those profits to shareholders. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/11 "2008-12-03T21:56:12Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Oh, and non-profits can make all the money they want (as a direct result of their operations) - they just can’t distribute those profits to shareholders. Right. They can make all the money they want, so long as they don’t make any profit. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/12 "2008-12-03T22:00:56Z")
> [@](#): > > no substantial part of its activity may be attempting to influence legislation, > > the organization may not intervene in political campaigns, and It sounds like the IRS should stop the tax exempt status of the Mormon church after their large donation and interference in California’s Prop 8. Although it would be highly controversial and make a lot of people upset, isnt their $20+ million donation to the pro-Prop 8 campaign a violation? Shouldn’t it be a pretty open and shut case? I know religious people have been trying to influence politics for a long time, but as far as I know, no church has ever donated so much to one side of an election. Statistically, the Prop 8 campaign spent a combined $50+ million, making it the most expensive ballot campaign in history. If more than a third of the money came from Mormons, how hard would it be to stop considering them a church? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/13 "2008-12-03T22:03:56Z")
Did it come from the actual church, or did it come from individual donors (who happen to be Mormon) or a seperate PAC created by Mormons? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/14 "2008-12-03T22:13:46Z")
That I do not know, and I suspect that that is probably why they are still considered a church. All of the articles I’ve read about the issue simply states that the Mormon church donated money without specifying what that means ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/15 "2008-12-03T22:22:35Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Did it come from the actual church, or did it come from individual donors (who happen to be Mormon) or a seperate PAC created by Mormons? The money came from individual Mormon donors. It didn’t come from the LDS church. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/16 "2008-12-03T23:19:53Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > So long as you’re not making a profit, helping political candidates, lobbying, or breaking the law, why would the IRS care? Because I could just be a person who is using the term “church” to avoid paying taxes. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/17 "2008-12-03T23:35:18Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Because I could just be a person who is using the term “church” to avoid paying taxes. IANA Revenue Officer or a CPA but my mom worked criminal investigations at the IRS for a bit (still works there in another capacity). Just calling yourself a “Church” does not magically make you exempt from taxes. If you for example are living on church property you can be said to be recieving compensation in the form of room and board, this is taxable and there are guidelines for determining the value of that room and board. The organization may be exempt, but you personally are not. If you are found using church funds/resources for yourself and claiming they are church related expenses the IRS will eventually stop by and take a peek when you have not paid taxes for a few years. If you live in a nice house and drive a nice car, they will wonder how you paid for it…audit commences, bullshit exposed, NPO disbanded, you pay shitloads of back taxes and penalties. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/18 "2008-12-03T23:56:53Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Some of these things seem pretty difficult to verify. For example, how do you determine that someone isn’t going to another church? (#6) And really, what’s so wrong with going to two different churches? And why must the church have Sunday school? And how do you define “a literature of its own”? > > I understand that these things by nature are difficult to verify, but _how_ do they verify? In the IRS tax guide linked above, the definition includes your list, but with some important qualifications. It provides Church. Certain characteristics are generally attributed to churches. These attributes of a church have been developed by the IRS and by court decisions. They include: distinct legal existence; recognized creed and form of worship; definite and distinct ecclesiastical government; formal code of doctrine and discipline; distinct religious history; membership not associated with any other church or denomination; organization of ordained ministers; ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study; literature of its own; established places of worship; regular congregations; regular religious services; Sunday schools for the religious instruction of the young; schools for the preparation of its ministers. The IRS generally uses a combination of these characteristics, together with other facts and circumstances, to determine whether an organization is considered a church for federal tax purposes. What this means is it is a multi-factor test, and the determination is based on all of the facts and circumstances. For instance, the Society of Friends (Quakers) is undoubtedly a church by anyone’s reckoning, but it does not have clergy. Other churches don’t have one or more of those factors. There has been quite a bit of litigation over some religious organizations which don’t quite fit squarely into the commonly held perception of what a house of worship/congegration looks like. Mostly it comes when the IRS looks into deductions for contributions to churchse or claims to the special tax benefits available to clergy members. > [@guizot](#): > > It seems like it’d be pretty easy to just start my own church. There are store-front congregations all over L.A., and they don’t seem to be under any particular larger sect or organization. They just seem to be some guy who put on his best suit and invited his friends and family to come around with tambourines. I’ve wondered if I can move into a place like that, start my own similar church, and then deduct the rent and utilities, etc. I could invite my friends over to drink beer on Friday nights, pontificate on something, and call it a religious service. (Maybe I could even deduct the cost of the beer.) > > My question is: How does the IRS know the difference? If you can demonstrate that you hold regular meetings for religious or spiritual purposes attended by a somewhat stable congregation, that’s pretty much the minimum you have to prove. I don’t have time now, but I can find some citations later. If you establish a church, and that you qualify as a clergy member, you may be entitled to some tax benefits based on any ministry income (but not on any ordinary, non-ministry income), including a housing allowance or the right to live in church housing tax-free. It’s complicated, however, and largely depends on having your congregants be willing to contribute to your ministerial lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/19 "2008-12-04T00:47:55Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Because I could just be a person who is using the term “church” to avoid paying taxes. Among the other reasons given above (which are more thorough), if you were trying a half-assed attempt at avoiding taxes, you’d be better off being “a person who is using the term ‘fraternal organization’ to avoid paying taxes” because being a church restricts a number of things you can do that a non-religious non-profit can, even though they are extended the same tax benefits (which is why I made the comment). Either way, you still have to go through numerous hoops before you are granted your 501(c)(3) status, and even then, you still have to pay taxes. > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Right. They can make all the money they want, so long as they don’t make any profit. Yup, just heading off the “churches aren’t not-for-profit! they make tons of money!” argument off at the pass that usually pops up from a drive-by in these kinds of threads. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548/20 "2008-12-04T18:54:51Z")
In the olden days, when SimCity was new, there was some debate from time to time as to whether one should routinely bulldoze churches, on the grounds that they detracted from one’s tax revenue. I don’t know if that question was ever settled. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-irs-verify-a-churchs-validity/475548.md?page=2)