# How does the military's heinous actions and ESPECIALLY serving in those institutions get such a pass **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 3, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774 "2015-02-03T23:55:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/21 "2015-02-05T04:37:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > well, a shit ton of cites. There you go. Case closed. > > Can I quote you on that and add that to the bottom of the Wiki article? > > You shot passed discussing her death and went straight to complaining about your declared version of things. I’m not sure what you’re asking for. Do you want me to try and find a photocopy of the coroner report? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/22 "2015-02-05T07:11:32Z")
So, **Magiver** ; Which is bigger, more persuasive, more convincing–a shit-ton or a plenty? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/23 "2015-02-05T12:13:53Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > I’m not sure what you’re asking for. Do you want me to try and find a photocopy of the coroner report? You started a thread with a conclusion that doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/24 "2015-02-05T14:16:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You started a thread with a conclusion that doesn’t exist. So you’re asking for cites on murders that the military declares suicides? ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/25 "2015-02-05T16:28:53Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Gus: Looks like he didn’t get your point. Maybe you should have said _newsletter_ instead of _booklet_. > [@Monty](#): > > Well, we’ve contributed more coherence than what appeared in the OP. Does that count? > [@Monty](#): > > So, **Magiver** ; Which is bigger, more persuasive, more convincing–a shit-ton or a plenty? That’s enough with this behavior. Participate in a civil manner, or take it elsewhere. > [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > You two have something to contribute or are you done with the reach arounds? And if you have a problem with someone’s posts, report them, rather than responding in kind. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/26 "2015-02-05T16:51:18Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > And yet I’m supposed to applaud when an honor guard brings out flags? I’m supposed to applaud veterans returning from serving those institutions? Of course not! You should hiss and boo at the honor guard and demand of returning veterans that they repent for their sins and those of their higher-ups. In fact, it would be excellent political strategy to picket the funerals of slain veterans, Fred Phelps-style. Show 'em you can’t be cowed by our pro-military culture. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/27 "2015-02-05T17:39:41Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Of course not! > > You should hiss and boo at the honor guard and demand of returning veterans that they repent for their sins and those of their higher-ups. > > In fact, it would be excellent political strategy to picket the funerals of slain veterans, Fred Phelps-style. > > Show 'em you can’t be cowed by our pro-military culture. As above. Do you have something to contribute besides snark and strawmen? If you don’t think people who voluntarily join an organization that cover up murders should receive scrutiny for their decisions just say so. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/28 "2015-02-05T19:26:40Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > If you don’t think people who voluntarily join an organization that cover up murders should receive scrutiny for their decisions just say so. All right: I don’t think people who voluntarily join an organization that covers up murders should receive scrutiny for their decisions … because your statement in itself is a straw man. The U.S. military, as a whole, doesn’t exist to commit and then cover up murders. If that were its _raison d’etre_, I’d say you have a point. But since it’s not, you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/29 "2015-02-05T19:34:15Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Instead of the **whole military** , lets start with something a lot more personal and in our face. The local police. > > Three counties to the East the local police there killed a kid and later shot a dog for no reason. > > What we should do: > > 1. Start a media blitz to convince everyone that becoming a LEO is a bad thing because they do thus & such and it was both on **Facebook** and in **Wikipedia**. > > 2. No longer support in any manor the LEO’s & not give tax money to have them get equipment. > > 3. If their is trouble on our property we should never call on the LEO’s as that is giving tacit affirmation of their methods. > > 4. Start dissociating with anyone who supports or uses the LEO’s. > > If we can get this going in our local area, then we can move onto bigger and more important authorities who are doing like you said above. > > If you have gotten to the point of organizing and printing a booklet, I would like to join as I too feel that this needs addressing real badly. > > How can I help?? How about 5) demand that the officer’s responsible are held responsible for their actions, stripped of their job, forfeit their pension, forbidden from working in law enforcement again and face possible criminal and civil penalties? Your attitude is typical of the problem with organizations like the military or police. It basically amounts to “their job is hard so they should get a free pass to do what they want”. Part of the problem with such organizations is, as another poster put out, they are often more interested in the “good of the service”. So there are strong incentives to brush such incidents under the rug and handle them “in house” to avoid public scrutiny. I should point out that such behavior is not limited to law enforcement or military. How long was Sanduskys behavior overlooked at Penn State or the behavior of investment bankers at Lehman and Bear Stears? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/30 "2015-02-05T19:45:15Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > As above. Do you have something to contribute besides snark and strawmen? Why _should_ he contribute something of substance? You haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/31 "2015-02-05T20:04:44Z")
I don’t really get your viewpoint, so you want to hold lowly privates that join the military to feed their family because they don’t have any other job prospects accountable for the actions that are more often than not engaged in by senior officers, whom the victims of the cover-ups such as rapes or what have you are more often than not other lower enlisted personnel? The military is a huge organization there are literally millions of people in the military, most of the people in the military do the right thing and the diversity of members is equally vast, your feelings on this subject seem pretty ridiculous to me. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/32 "2015-02-05T21:05:08Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Why _should_ he contribute something of substance? You haven’t. Gentlemen. Holding members of the military accountable for their career choices was relevant during Vietnam and given that it is now a volunteer Org. AND one has better access to information on said Org…a discussion is still relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/33 "2015-02-05T21:21:59Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Gentlemen. Holding members of the military accountable for their career choices was relevant during Vietnam and given that it is now a volunteer Org. AND one has better access to information on said Org…a discussion is still relevant. No, it wasn’t relevant then and it isn’t relevant now. A private is not responsible for national defense policy or the implementation of military justice any more than the drive-thru clerk at McDonald’s is responsible for the chicken selects being discontinued. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/34 "2015-02-05T21:25:41Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Gentlemen. Holding members of the military accountable for their career choices was relevant during Vietnam and given that it is now a volunteer Org. AND one has better access to information on said Org…a discussion is still relevant. Seriously? Because someone was drafted into the military during Vietnam, it’s okay in your mind to hold them accountable for any and all atrocities that occurred during Vietnam? Look, you want to hold someone accountable for seeking out and joining ISIS, that’s fine. But to claim that members of the U.S. military – ANY members of the U.S. military – should be held accountable for the actions of a miniscule fraction of their leaders and/or rank-and-file volunteers … that’s beyond ridiculous. You’re painting with a brush so broad it’s impossible to lift. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/35 "2015-02-05T21:28:42Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Gentlemen. Holding members of the military accountable for their career choices was relevant during Vietnam and given that it is now a volunteer Org. AND one has better access to information on said Org…a discussion is still relevant. You voluntarily live in the US, a country that has covered up atrocities and killed many people under unjust circumstances. Why haven’t you moved to Canada? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/36 "2015-02-05T21:40:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, it wasn’t relevant then and it isn’t relevant now. A private is not responsible for national defense policy or the implementation of military justice any more than the drive-thru clerk at McDonald’s is responsible for the chicken selects being discontinued. Of course it is. There’s a line somewhere on personal accountability. Where is it? If a private is ‘just following orders’ and burns down a village, is he accountable? If so…then where is the line? How about the private who witnesses the atrocity but keeps quiet? How about the one who hears a rumor but just chalks it up to rumor or says ‘none of my business’. Where is the line of accountability? Also, you and a lot of others in this thread are making biiiig assumptions as to what I’m saying. But just to stay on point, _right now_ the only thing I’m arguing is at what point one becomes accountable for serving in an organization you know has commited atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/37 "2015-02-05T21:42:49Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > You voluntarily live in the US, a country that has covered up atrocities and killed many people under unjust circumstances. Why haven’t you moved to Canada? I’m American Indian and don’t recognize the U.S’s authority over me. I do apologize however for my tribes past and present actions that I don’t find morally sound. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/38 "2015-02-05T21:48:02Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Of course it is. There’s a line somewhere on personal accountability. Where is it? If a private is ‘just following orders’ and burns down a village, is he accountable? If so…then where is the line? [That depends on the extent to which the private knew that the act he was being ordered to commit is illegal.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders) > [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > I’m American Indian and don’t recognize the U.S’s authority over me. Whatever tribe you claim to be a member of does, because _they_ have a treaty with the US that acknowledges US suzerainty over them, and the status of their members (that’s you!) as US citizens, in exchange for limited sovereignty over their territory as defined by said treaty. You became a US citizen at birth. Whether you “acknowledge” it or not is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/39 "2015-02-05T21:49:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [That depends on the extent to which the private knew that the act he was being ordered to commit is illegal.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders) > > Whatever tribe you claim to be a member of does, because _they_ have a treaty with the US that acknowledges US suzerainty over them, and the status of their members (that’s you!) as US citizens, in exchange for limited sovereignty over their territory as defined by said treaty. > > You became a US citizen at birth. Whether you “acknowledge” it or not is irrelevant. Sez you. The only boss I have is my wife. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/40 "2015-02-05T21:51:24Z")
> [@Dale Sams](#): > > There’s a line somewhere on personal accountability. Where is it? If a private is ‘just following orders’ and burns down a village, is he accountable? If so…then where is the line? > > How about the private who witnesses the atrocity but keeps quiet? How about the one who hears a rumor but just chalks it up to rumor or says ‘none of my business’. Where is the line of accountability? If a private is “just following orders” and helps his platoon deliver food to an impoverished village, does he get credit for that? Or is he (or she) irrevocably tarred by the actions of .001 percent of the military? > [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > I’m American Indian and don’t recognize the U.S’s authority over me. I do apologize however for my tribes past and present actions that I don’t find morally sound. Okay, so if my great-great-grandfather was scalped by someone from your tribe in 1870, can I hold you accountable? Had he lived, he would have been a major railroad baron in the late 1800s and early 1900s, so I figure you owe me several hundred million dollars at this point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774.md?page=3)