# How does the military's heinous actions and ESPECIALLY serving in those institutions get such a pass **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 3, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774 "2015-02-03T23:55:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/41 "2015-02-05T21:55:57Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > If a private is “just following orders” and helps his platoon deliver food to an impoverished village, does he get credit for that? Or is he (or she) irrevocably tarred by the actions of .001 percent of the military? > > Okay, so if my great-great-grandfather was scalped by someone from your tribe in 1870, can I hold you accountable? Had he lived, he would have been a major railroad baron in the late 1800s and early 1900s, so I figure you owe me several hundred million dollars at this point. You’re being kind. Those dollars translate to billions today. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/42 "2015-02-05T21:58:08Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > You’re being kind. Those dollars translate to billions today. Yeah, but I figure I would have blown a lot of it already. That’s not your fault, so I’m not holding you accountable for it. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/43 "2015-02-05T22:14:13Z")
Sheesh…I probably couldn’t get a job as a Federal dog-catcher after this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/44 "2015-02-05T22:20:48Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > If you don’t think people who voluntarily join an organization that cover up murders should receive scrutiny for their decisions just say so. I don’t think people who voluntarily join an organization that cover [sic] up murders should receive scrutiny for their decisions. There’s nothing wrong with voluntarily joining an organization that cover [sic] up murders. Everyone but you knows this. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/45 "2015-02-05T23:41:23Z")
Also, last time I checked…Canada is one of those countries where to emigrate, you need a job waiting for you. You can’t just move to Vancouver and wash dishes. Granted this info may be out of date. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/46 "2015-02-06T00:25:58Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > So you’re asking for cites on murders that the military declares suicides? Yes, that’s generally how it’s down when you make assumptions as the basis of a discussion. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/47 "2015-02-06T00:30:03Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > If a private is ‘just following orders’ and burns down a village, is he accountable? > How about the private who witnesses the atrocity but keeps quiet? > How about the one who hears a rumor but just chalks it up to rumor or says ‘none of my business’. Snipped the substantive questions out of the ones that were merely begging the overall question. IN order the answers are: - Yes. Clearly and unequivocally yes. The oath includes obeying LAWFUL orders. A Soldier is expected to disobey unlawful orders in an appropriate fashion. Your question assumes that simply burning the village is a war crime without enough evidence to say that conclusively, but if unlawful they are liable orders or no. American Soldier gets required annual retraining on laws of war. - Yes. Assuming there aren’t factors that protect them because of inability to do anything/unlawful coercion. That’s more likely to - In the absence of evidence a rumor is a rumor. Plenty of civilians use similar excuses. IME in the 27 years I spent in uniform Soldiers tend to be more willing to raise issues. Personal courage is an Army value. Clearly written in to that value is moral courage to do the right thing, not simple physical courage to accept risk. In some ways I am probably more outraged about PFC Johnson’s death than you. She was one of my sisters in arms and it happened while I was still in boots. I’m most outraged at whichever vile excuse for a human being did this. Maybe there wasn’t enough evidence to ever solve it. Maybe it pointed at the issue of providing effective punishments for contractors (and this was in a contractor tent) highlighting issues with the system using them. Maybe some exerted pressure to sweep it under the rug despite other evidence. I can be angry with the specific individuals that may have chosen to cover up. You want to direct your outrage against an entire institution and everyone that’s put on the uniform. I can’t share your widespread stereotyping and directing of anger everyone, including PFC Johnson, who’s ever put on the uniform. I can decry inexcusable decisions made by some in an organization I was part of. I can also respect that it was an organization that used the example of [Hugh Thompson Clowers, Jr](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson,_Jr.) in training and manuals demonstrating what right looks like. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/48 "2015-02-06T01:08:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, that’s generally how it’s down when you make assumptions as the basis of a discussion. [http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/20/us/40-suicide-rulings-are-challenged.html](http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/20/us/40-suicide-rulings-are-challenged.html) [http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MENA/suicide4.html](http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MENA/suicide4.html) ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/49 "2015-02-06T01:21:44Z")
Oh…and great post Dino. (No sarcasm) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/50 "2015-02-06T15:49:28Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > You voluntarily live in the US, a country that has covered up atrocities and killed many people under unjust circumstances. Why haven’t you moved to Canada? My cousin in law went to Penn State. Should I be worried about being alone in the same room with him…sexually?:eek: > [@bump](#): > > One thing to remember is that a lot of the behaviors and attitudes that engender cover-ups are also the same ones that are extremely useful in combat- stuff like extreme obedience and unquestioning loyalty to one’s fellow soldiers. > > This makes the military a very hard place to avoid having cover-ups and the like; they want to encourage those behaviors and attitudes, but then expect them to just rat out their fellow soldiers / chain of command when something questionable happens? Not likely to happen. I don’t buy that. The behaviors that are useful in combat are being able to trust your fellow soldiers, a strong sense of shared culture, morals and values and a firm belief in that the often unpleasant things you have to do are for a larger greater good with the certitude of a strong ethical foundation. It’s largely the difference between a professional volunteer army defending a democratic nation vs an armed mobbed or warlord gang. From what I know if the military, “extreme obedience” is not part of their values. Yes, there is a hierarchy and a chain of command, but soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines are not expected to be automatons nor are they expected to carry out illegal orders. And why does “unquestioning loyalty” not carry over to when a soldier is raped and/or murdered by another soldier or soldiers? To me, that seems like a much greater betrayal of their values. Not that it is justification, but the I suspect that a greater contributing factor is the military’s culture of completing the mission, regardless of the cost. The military has a job to do. Incidents like “friendly fire” (as in the case of Pat Tillman), murders, rapes, suicides, sexual harassment and so on paint the military in a bad light, reduce it’s ability to recruit, provide propaganda for the enemy and reduce the fighting effectiveness of units involved in those incidents. From a war-fighting standpoint, some unit’s headcount is down. Doesn’t matter if it is because a gang of soldiers were court-martialed for raping a fellow soldier or if they were all blown up in an IED explosion. I can imagine some Colonel not wanting to tell the Pentagon that he can’t provide air support for the upcoming operation because half his pilots are stuck in depositions with the JAG office. Again, I don’t think this behavior is limited to the military. You see the same double standards and hypocrisy in corporations. Often sales guys or successful traders in investment banks get a pass on outlandish behavior because they bring in a lot of revenue. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/51 "2015-02-06T17:31:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, it wasn’t relevant then and it isn’t relevant now. A private is not responsible for national defense policy or the implementation of military justice any more than the drive-thru clerk at McDonald’s is responsible for the chicken selects being discontinued. That analogy reminds me of the real life example were Chick Fillet drive through clerks were being yelled at for the actions of the corporate HQ & owner. Some people were ok with that. I thought it was unfair to the minimum wage schlub. ---
**Author:** ![blackbolt\_1987](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@blackbolt\_1987](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blackbolt_1987)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/52 "2015-02-06T21:46:09Z")
I think Captain America says it all: [http://www.arksark.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/captain-america-hates-guantanamo.jpg](http://www.arksark.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/captain-america-hates-guantanamo.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/53 "2015-02-06T23:10:37Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/20/us/40-suicide-rulings-are-challenged.html](http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/20/us/40-suicide-rulings-are-challenged.html) > > [http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MENA/suicide4.html](http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MENA/suicide4.html) And? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/54 "2015-02-07T07:57:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And? And now you’re just trolling or being obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/55 "2015-02-07T15:59:40Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > And now you’re just trolling or being obtuse. Calling someone a troll outside of the Pit is against the rules. This is an official warning. Don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/56 "2015-02-08T05:10:36Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > And now you’re just trolling or being obtuse. Again, you started a thread with an opinion as if it was fact. I asked you for a cite backing up your assumption(s). They don’t exist. You could pick one of the people you listed and expand on it for discussion. But you chose a blanket declaration of fact looking for a pile-on. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/57 "2015-02-08T14:41:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Again, you started a thread with an opinion as if it was fact. I asked you for a cite backing up your assumption(s). They don’t exist. > > You could pick one of the people you listed and expand on it for discussion. But you chose a blanket declaration of fact looking for a pile-on. An Air Force criminal investigator says that the military often declares murders as suicides…isn’t a cite? Unnk. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/58 "2015-02-08T16:09:44Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > An Air Force criminal investigator says that the military often declares murders as suicides…isn’t a cite? Unnk. It would have relevance if you focused on one case and used that quote along with evidence involving that case. Really, I’m not advancing a complicated point. You can’t throw out a blanket condemnation without proof as a starting point for a discussion. That’s called a rant. If you want to pick out ONE case and move through the evidence as a point of discussion then you have a thread. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/59 "2015-02-08T23:31:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It would have relevance if you focused on one case and used that quote along with evidence involving that case. > > Really, I’m not advancing a complicated point. You can’t throw out a blanket condemnation without proof as a starting point for a discussion. That’s called a rant. > > If you want to pick out ONE case and move through the evidence as a point of discussion then you have a thread. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Phu\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Phu\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phu_Cat)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774/60 "2015-02-09T00:21:55Z")
There are times when we are better off not knowing certain things. They may be classified or part of a clandestine action. And a lot of times it’s just a part of the other political party trying to stir up a story where there is none. Or simply the facts being different than one side thinks they are, sort of like Ferguson, Missouri. I’m sure cover ups have happened in the military as often as we’ve seen them happen in voting registration of dead people and more people voting in some voting districts than were registered voters there. To ask a question like this you must not care for the military much. Whether you like it or not, these are the courageous people that gave you the right to write such foolishness here, work where you choose, vote the way you like, hold the job you choose, etc, etc. The military is the single most important institution our government runs. Without them, all your other rights are meaningless. Defending our rights is of utmost importance because once they are gone winning them back will be nearly impossible. Or is that what you prefer? Phu Cat [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-militarys-heinous-actions-and-especially-serving-in-those-institutions-get-such-a-pass/711774.md?page=4)