# How does the state recognizing gay marriage infringe on religious freedom?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 9, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560 "2009-04-09T20:40:33Z")
**Posts on this page:** 18
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/41 "2009-04-10T04:25:39Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> Well there is the right to live in a homogenous community based on a common morality that is infringed upon
There is no such right whatsoever.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2009, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/42 "2009-04-10T04:32:13Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> Well I am arguing that they don’t have that right, it has been stripped slowly over time.
They have never had that right. It has never existed.
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### Author:  [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2009, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/43 "2009-04-10T05:39:35Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> This is sad. People should be able to discriminate in a not-for-profit adoption agency, as long as the market is served otherwise. Like if I wanted to give up my child for adoption and ensure that it goes to a Catholic family, I am unserved. (I’m not Catholic, just sayin’)
The issue was the adoption branch was heavily subsidized by Massachusetts. Effectively MA was paying the church to assist in placing children with families. It was a simple case of if you are going to accept money from the state then you must follow the states non-discrimination policy. The Catholic church was morally opposed to considering gay families for adoption so chose the refuse state funding. They did not have to follow the non-discrimination policy if they weren’t accepting public money. In theory they could have operated as a private religious organization for the placing of children. Problems such as it being a money losing activity and the state not supplying children to meet the demand caused them to close shop.
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### Author:  [@whorfin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whorfin)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2009, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/44 "2009-04-10T06:25:56Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#):
>
> The issue was the adoption branch was heavily subsidized by Massachusetts. Effectively MA was paying the church to assist in placing children with families. It was a simple case of if you are going to accept money from the state then you must follow the states non-discrimination policy. The Catholic church was morally opposed to considering gay families for adoption so chose the refuse state funding. They did not have to follow the non-discrimination policy if they weren’t accepting public money. In theory they could have operated as a private religious organization for the placing of children. Problems such as it being a money losing activity and the state not supplying children to meet the demand caused them to close shop.
Or more precisely, the adoption branch **did** obey the antidiscrimination law for years (since well before gay marriage we legalized.) Then, they decided all of a sudden that they were going to start discriminating against gay couples because of a suddenly rediscovered moral opposition to gay families–and then they closed down after discovering that the state wasn’t going to make an exception to its laws for them (though IIRC, Romney did support an exception–but it (unsurprisingly) went nowhere).
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### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2009, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/45 "2009-04-10T12:15:26Z")
> [@whorfin](#):
>
> Or more precisely, the adoption branch **did** obey the antidiscrimination law for years (since well before gay marriage we legalized.) Then, they decided all of a sudden that they were going to start discriminating against gay couples because of a suddenly rediscovered moral opposition to gay families–and then they closed down after discovering that the state wasn’t going to make an exception to its laws for them (though IIRC, Romney did support an exception–but it (unsurprisingly) went nowhere).
To be precise, “they” does not equal Catholic Charities of Massachusetts, who was quite happy to go on placing children with gay couples as they had been doing, but rather the Archdiocese of Boston, their superior authority, which took it on itself to demand no further placements with gay couples.
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### Author:  [@whorfin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whorfin)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/46 "2009-04-10T18:13:40Z")
> [@Polycarp](#):
>
> To be precise, “they” does not equal Catholic Charities of Massachusetts, who was quite happy to go on placing children with gay couples as they had been doing, but rather the Archdiocese of Boston, their superior authority, which took it on itself to demand no further placements with gay couples.
And several Catholic Charities board members resigned over the decision. In any event, the point is that the end of their adoption service (1) wasn’t due to gay marriage, and (2) wasn’t due to a new or changed anti-discrimination law–Catholic Charities voluntarily obeyed the anti-discrimination law for years before gay marriage was legal in MA.
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### Author:  [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/47 "2009-04-10T23:23:24Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> This is sad. People should be able to discriminate in a not-for-profit adoption agency, as long as the market is served otherwise. Like if I wanted to give up my child for adoption and ensure that it goes to a Catholic family, I am unserved. (I’m not Catholic, just sayin’)
The principle is quite simple, actually. If you want to control the racial, sexual or religious atmosphere in which your child is raised, you can, by _raising the child yourself_. Once you relinquish custody of the child, you no longer have that control, nor should you. If you aren’t willing to retain your responsibilities, you cannot also expect to retain preferences.
> [@Sampiro](#):
>
> For those not familiar with that commercial-[youtube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI261VU0AZA).
>
> I love their use of “rainbow coalition” and the obviously queer paw-paw (white beard guy (at :12). And is that Eldin from the Cosby Show?
No, it’s definitely not poor Eldin. Even he isn’t that desperate for work.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/48 "2009-04-10T23:56:08Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#):
>
> The principle is quite simple, actually. If you want to control the racial, sexual or religious atmosphere in which your child is raised, you can, by _raising the child yourself_. Once you relinquish custody of the child, you no longer have that control, nor should you. If you aren’t willing to retain your responsibilities, you cannot also expect to retain preferences.
I disagree. It’s a market to be served with people who would like to serve it. For much of European history the Catholic Church WAS the adoption agency. That’s like saying if I want a cabinet of a certain type I can build it myself otherwise I need to take what I can get. There are Catholics who want to adopt, so why shouldn’t one be able to give their kid up to a Catholic family?
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/49 "2009-04-10T23:57:27Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#):
>
> The issue was the adoption branch was heavily subsidized by Massachusetts. Effectively MA was paying the church to assist in placing children with families. It was a simple case of if you are going to accept money from the state then you must follow the states non-discrimination policy. The Catholic church was morally opposed to considering gay families for adoption so chose the refuse state funding. They did not have to follow the non-discrimination policy if they weren’t accepting public money. In theory they could have operated as a private religious organization for the placing of children. Problems such as it being a money losing activity and the state not supplying children to meet the demand caused them to close shop.
Agreed, if they can’t do it without state money then they should either operate by the state’s rules or abandon the operation.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/50 "2009-04-11T00:23:03Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> That’s like saying if I want a cabinet of a certain type I can build it myself otherwise I need to take what I can get.
Sounds right to me.
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### Author:  [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/51 "2009-04-11T00:57:24Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> I disagree. It’s a market to be served with people who would like to serve it.
It’s a market to be served. So is the market of people who’d like to eat raw pork off of a naked 15 year old. That doesn’t mean that such whims need to be indulged.
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/52 "2009-04-14T19:12:03Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> I disagree. It’s a market to be served with people who would like to serve it. For much of European history the Catholic Church WAS the adoption agency. That’s like saying if I want a cabinet of a certain type I can build it myself otherwise I need to take what I can get. There are Catholics who want to adopt, so why shouldn’t one be able to give their kid up to a Catholic family?
I don’t know Massachusetts law, but I imagine that if one wanted to do that (give their baby to a Catholic family) that a private adoption could be done. Just don’t expect an agency that is receiving state funding (which is mandated to be non-discrimatory) to do it. I thought the right wing was all over the whole bootstraps thing and less government intervention, anyway. Why would someone conservative enough to insist that their child be adopted by a family with their same religion/race/political philosophy expect the adoption to be subsidized by the state, then?
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/53 "2009-04-14T19:14:25Z")
> [@jayjay](#):
>
> I don’t know Massachusetts law, but I imagine that if one wanted to do that (give their baby to a Catholic family) that a private adoption could be done. Just don’t expect an agency that is receiving state funding (which is mandated to be non-discrimatory) to do it. I thought the right wing was all over the whole bootstraps thing and less government intervention, anyway. Why would someone conservative enough to insist that their child be adopted by a family with their same religion/race/political philosophy expect the adoption to be subsidized by the state, then?
Well Catholics tend to vote Democratic. I think there is something a lot less individualist and more socialist tending among Catholics than you see amongst Protestant conservatives. I agree about the state funding thing.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/54 "2009-04-14T19:15:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#):
>
> Sounds right to me.
Well you go ahead and do that, I’ll hire a carpenter if it’s within my means.
**Tumbledown** So you think that wanting your child raised Catholic is akin to pedophilia huh?
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/55 "2009-04-14T19:18:19Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> Well Catholics tend to vote Democratic. I think there is something a lot less individualist and more socialist tending among Catholics than you see amongst Protestant conservatives. I agree about the state funding thing.
See, though, what’s not coming through here is that Catholic Charities is not the one making a grievance about the funding. It’s NOM (nom nom) that’s doing that, and in the ad itself, an actor reading lines written by someone at NOM that purports to tell the story about the funding thing, but doing a piss-poor job of actually telling it accurately.
The point about the NOM (nom nom) ad is that it’s full of lies and half-truths and shadings of the truth that really add up to air and fluff.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/56 "2009-04-14T19:23:19Z")
> [@jayjay](#):
>
> See, though, what’s not coming through here is that Catholic Charities is not the one making a grievance about the funding. It’s NOM (nom nom) that’s doing that, and in the ad itself, an actor reading lines written by someone at NOM that purports to tell the story about the funding thing, but doing a piss-poor job of actually telling it accurately.
>
> The point about the NOM (nom nom) ad is that it’s full of lies and half-truths and shadings of the truth that really add up to air and fluff.
I must confess I never heard of NOM until this thread.
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### Author:  [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/57 "2009-04-14T19:24:26Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> Well there is the right to live in a homogenous community based on a common morality
No, there isn’t. That’s simply an infantile whine of WAAA I WANT IT dressed up in the garb of a “right”.
[QUOTE=L. Sprague deCamp, “Lest Darkness Fall”]
“You don’t like the Goths?”
“No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!”
“Persecution?”
“Religious persecution. We wont stand for it forever.”
“I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased.”
“That’s just it! We Orthodox are forced to stand around and watch Arians and Monophysites and Nestorians and Jews going about their business unmolested, as if they owned the country. If that isn’t persecution, I’d like to know what is!”
[/QUOTE]
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### Author:  [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-state-recognizing-gay-marriage-infringe-on-religious-freedom/492560/58 "2009-04-14T19:43:52Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> **Tumbledown** So you think that wanting your child raised Catholic is akin to pedophilia huh?
Neither true, nor clever, nor funny.
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