# How does the US mental health profession view suicide in other cultures? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 30, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460 "2011-01-30T00:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/21 "2011-01-30T15:10:15Z")
> [@xoferew](#): > > From what I understand (I’m no expert) Japanese suicide is not discussed publicly in advance or generally “supported,” but rather can be “understandable” by other Japanese afterwards. No, this is a basic misunderstanding of Japanese society. If Japanese view suicide as “understandable” in any form of the word, it would be the same reaction as many American’s would have had to the new of Bernard Madoff’s [elder son’s suicide.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/11/us-madoff-son-suicide-idUSTRE6BA1GE20101211) That is “understandable” only in terms that people, Americans or Japanese could picture it as a very unpleasent way of escaping an extremely painful situation. That said, the OP > [@](#): > > and it is my understanding suicide is still honorable in Japan in situations where an individual has disgraced themselves or has otherwise landed in unfavorable circumstances, and would be stigmatized if they remained among the living shows the danger of relying on James Clavel as a primary source of knowledge of a culture. ---
**Author:** ![xoferew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/e9a140/32.png) [@xoferew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xoferew)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/22 "2011-01-30T15:24:54Z")
Yes, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean “understandable” as in “Well, it makes sense that he did that,” but as in “I can intellectually comprehend some people faced with those awful circumstances making that awful decision.” As compared with in the US where people would I think be more likely to view that decision as selfish or shameful or sinful. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/23 "2011-01-30T15:54:59Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > If it’s possible to be suicidal because you’re disfigured, without being depressed, then…that’s an example of being suicidal without being depressed. > > Why is the assumption made in other cases that the cause must be depression? Because the vast majority of people who either commit suicide are attempt suicide have a diagnosable psychiatric illness. It’s not always depression, either. As someone else said, it’s a _symptom_. Here’s an analogy: when someone is running a fever they are assumed to have an illness. While it is possible to raise your core body temperature by other means - vigorous exercise for example - the majority of the time elevated body temperature is a sign of some sort of illness. So if you land in the hospital with a fever the assumption is you’re ill until proven otherwise. If you land in the hospital after a suicide attempt the assumption is mental illness until proved otherwise. Why? It’s the most likely cause. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/24 "2011-01-30T16:49:13Z")
> [@xoferew](#): > > Yes, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean “understandable” as in “Well, it makes sense that he did that,” but as in “I can intellectually comprehend some people faced with those awful circumstances making that awful decision.” As compared with in the US where people would I think be more likely to view that decision as selfish or shameful or sinful. No, it’s still seen as no less tragic than in the West. Romeo and Juliet does not strike a cord within humanity because of sins committed, but because of the tragedy. Unless the majority of Americans are incapable of empathizing with a soul in pain and instead condemn that person. ---
**Author:** ![skdo23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@skdo23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skdo23)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/25 "2011-01-30T16:51:47Z")
Wendell, do you also need a cite proving that humans need oxygen to live so you can stop holding your breath? It’s common f–king knowledge, and your unwillingness to settle for that just proves that you are either clueless or deliberately trying to be a pain in the ass. Either way, get over yourself! ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/26 "2011-01-30T17:04:09Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > If it’s possible to be suicidal because you’re disfigured, without being depressed, then…that’s an example of being suicidal without being depressed. > Why is the assumption made in other cases that the cause must be depression? The assumption is made because, in lots of experience with lots of patient over lots of years, doctors and nurses have come to know what are expected findings for most medical situations. I see the point you’re trying to get at, but I think you’re coming at it backwards from what \*\*Broomstick \*\*said. Sure, less tangible things might make a person suicidal, and it might be independent of a mental illness. \*\*Broomstick \*\*wasn’t negating that (nor am I). What \*\*Broomie \*\*and I are saying is that there are some medical conditions and life situations in which we expect to see suicidal thoughts, because \*lots \*of people with those conditions or in those situations have suicidal thoughts, even if they’re fleeting. It’s very very rare for a healthy person with no stressors and without mental illness to have suicidal thoughts. Is it possible? Perhaps. Are suicidal thoughts alone enough to give someone a diagnosis of Depression or Bipolar Disorder or Schizophrenia (mental illnesses in which suicidal thoughts are often symptoms)? NO. One single symptom, be it suicidal thoughts or hearing voices, does \*not \*merit a diagnosis. But it does merit an _evaluation_, because those symptoms are so often found in those mental illnesses. So yes, if you’re healthy, working a decent job and have a loving family and aren’t in debt \*and \*you’re having suicidal thoughts, damn skippy we’re going to run a mental health evaluation on you. Because 9 times out of 10, a person in that situation won’t have suicidal thoughts \*unless \*they have a mental illness. We can’t pin the suicidal thoughts on the your medical or life situation. It’s not normal, it’s an unexpected finding, and we want to find out why it’s happening, in case it’s something we can help you stop. But again, it’s not enough for a diagnosis all on its own - we’d be looking for other symptoms to corroborate our suspected diagnosis. If you don’t have them, you shouldn’t be diagnosed. In short, I think the OPs assumption that suicidal thoughts alone will result in a mental health diagnosis is off. It’s going to result in a mental health evaluation, but it shouldn’t always result in a diagnosis. Also, I think many of the things the OP is grouping with “suicide” are only semantically related, not mentally, emotionally or spiritually related. A suicide bomber isn’t really primarily interested in taking his own life. He’s interested in killing other people, damaging property and/or raising media awareness of his cause. He’s choosing to kill himself as the method to do that, but I don’t think most mental health professionals would consider that “suicidal”. Ditto the fireman who runs into a burning building to save an infant, knowing that it may collapse around him and kill him. His goal isn’t to end his life or ceases his suffering or shuffle off this mortal coil, it’s to save a baby. The fact that he doesn’t preserve his life at all costs doesn’t make him suicidal, it makes him a hero. The Japanese family example (adjusted for real life, not stereotype) is a little harder. Yes, health care professionals are trained to take culture into account, and not to pathologize what’s normal in their patient’s culture. OTOH, if the family is now living in the US, then US norms and consequences for their choices must be made crystal clear, especially if those choices have consequences to life and limb. A family who wants to perform a clitorectomy on their daughter in the US should be told it’s illegal and will result in a visit from Family Services. A person who wants to kill themselves for the family honor should be told that’s not the way we do things here, and steered toward Social Work to find resources that can help them financially and interpersonally. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/27 "2011-01-30T17:18:18Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > No, this is a basic misunderstanding of Japanese society. > > If Japanese view suicide as “understandable” in any form of the word, it would be the same reaction as many American’s would have had to the new of Bernard Madoff’s [elder son’s suicide.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/11/us-madoff-son-suicide-idUSTRE6BA1GE20101211) > > That is “understandable” only in terms that people, Americans or Japanese could picture it as a very unpleasent way of escaping an extremely painful situation. > > That said, the OPshows the danger of relying on James Clavel as a primary source of knowledge of a culture. I don’t think I’m relying on James Clavell, but I do have the impression that in certain circumstances suicide is looked on in Japan as a legitimate way of _making a point_, if that makes sense, in a way that wouldn’t be accepted in the West: e.g., [Yukio Mishima](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukio_Mishima) vs. [Budd Dwyer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Dwyer). But maybe I’m just going by pop culture impressions as well. How is Mishima and his act of seppuku regarded in Japan? ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/28 "2011-01-30T17:30:08Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > skdo23 writes: > > \> As far as Wendell Wagner’s request for a cite for my original comment on > \> suicide and religion, I have heard this many times and a quick look at Wikipedia > \> (I know, I know) confirms my belief that most Christian denominations feel this > \> way, and, of course, Christianity, for better or for worse, is the most prevelant > \> fait in the US. > > I’m still waiting for a cite that most Christians today consider suicide to be a sin. Can you name some recent theology books that ponder the issue of how great a sin it is? Can you tell us of great thundering sermons that you’ve heard from the pulpit warning that the surest way to hell is suicide? It’s my observation that most Christians today don’t even think about suicide when they worry about sin. So give us a citation that Christians today think of suicide as a sin or you’ve got nothing to start with. From the [Catholic Encyclopedia](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14326b.htm): > [@](#): > > Positive and direct suicide perpetrated without God’s consent always constitutes a grave injustice towards Him. To destroy a thing is to dispose of it as an absolute master and to act as one having full and independent dominion over it; but man does not possess this full and independent dominion over his life, since to be an owner one must be superior to his property. God has reserved to himself direct dominion over life; He is the owner of its substance and He has given man only the serviceable dominion, the right of use, with the charge of protecting and preserving the substance, that is, life itself. Consequently suicide is an attempt against the dominion and right of ownership of the Creator. To this injustice is added a serious offence against the charity which man owes to himself, since by his act he deprives himself of the greatest good in his possession and the possibility of attaining his final end. Moreover, the \*\*sin \*\*may be aggravated by circumstances, such as failure in conjugal, paternal, or filial piety, failure in justice or charity, if by taking his life one eludes existing obligations of justice or acts of charity, which he could and should perform. That suicide is unlawful is the teaching of Holy Scripture and of the Church, which condemns the act as a most atrocious crime and, in hatred of the \*\*sin \*\*and to arouse the horror of its children, denies the suicide Christian burial. Moreover, suicide is directly opposed to the most powerful and invincible tendency of every creature and especially of man, the preservation of life. Finally, for a sane man deliberately to take his own life, he must, as a general rule, first have annihilated in himself all that he possessed of spiritual life, since suicide is in absolute contradiction to everything that the Christian religion teaches us as to the end and object of life and, except in cases of insanity, is usually the natural termination of a life of disorder, weakness, and cowardice. I’m not Catholic (in fact I’m agnostic) but the Catholic Encyclopedia is interesting to poke through. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/29 "2011-01-30T17:47:46Z")
> [@skdo23](#): > > Wendell, do you also need a cite proving that humans need oxygen to live so you can stop holding your breath? It’s common f–king knowledge, and your unwillingness to settle for that just proves that you are either clueless or deliberately trying to be a pain in the ass. Either way, get over yourself! [Moderator Note] **skdo23** , personal attacks of this kind are out of place in GQ. No warning issued, but please dial it back. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/30 "2011-01-30T18:01:27Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/31 "2011-01-30T18:05:01Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I’m still waiting for a cite that most Christians today consider suicide to be a sin. Can you name some recent theology books that ponder the issue of how great a sin it is? Can you tell us of great thundering sermons that you’ve heard from the pulpit warning that the surest way to hell is suicide? It’s my observation that most Christians today don’t even think about suicide when they worry about sin. So give us a citation that Christians today think of suicide as a sin or you’ve got nothing to start with. As has been noted, suicide is regarded as a sin by Roman Catholics (which I can attest to, having had 13 years of parochial education). According to the translation used by Catholics, the Fifth Commandment says “Thou shalt not kill.” (However, in translations used by other denominations, the Sixth Commandment is "Thou shalt not murder.) The [Catechism of the Catholic Church](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm) has this to say about suicide: > [@](#): > > 2325 Suicide is seriously contrary to justice, hope, and charity. It is forbidden by the fifth commandment. > [@](#): > > **Suicide** > 2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of. > > 2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God. > > 2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law. > > Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide. > > 2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives. Suicide is regarded as a very serious sin especially because it generally offers little opportunity for repentance. However, clause 2282 notes extenuating circumstances; and 2283 notes that lack of repentance should not be assumed. Now, I don’t have cites for other Christian denominations, but I think at this point the onus is on you for specific cites that they do not consider suicide a sin (at least in some circumstances). ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/32 "2011-01-30T18:15:40Z")
When it comes down to it the law and medicine do realise that suicide can be the rational decision of a balanced mind. So that , for example, a person can refuse medical help (say an antidote to poison) for a suicide attempt if they are judged to be able to understand the consequences of their actions, weigh up that information and come to a decision. Now, in the majority of cases it is the “weighing up” that is questioned, because a depressed person will not be able to judge the situation in the same way as someone who is not mentally ill. But someone who isn’t mentally ill and who has clearly made a rational and informed decision to die- the law says you have to let them get on with it, as they have a right to refuse treatment. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/33 "2011-01-30T19:31:46Z")
[QUOTE=robert\_columbia] Let’s phrase it this way. If a person of Japanese ethnicity living in the US told their US doctor that they were considering suicide because their business failed and they are $100k in debt, and that their family was fully supportive of the decision, which they agree is in keeping with the values and beliefs of their culture, would the doctor feel that this is something that would call for an intervention? . [/QUOTE] Damn, missed this on the first time. 1. In Japan, if a businessman walked into their doctor and said he was considering suicide, the Japanese doctor would intervene. 2. It is not their culture to do this. 3. Their families would not be supportive of this. 4. He would be diagnosed as being depressed. > [@WhyNot](#): > > The Japanese family example (adjusted for real life, not stereotype) is a little harder. No, it’s not hard at all if you stop confusing The Last Samurai with reality. The Japanese as a mysterious culture is so 80s. For the last time, Japanese do not consider suicide an honorable thing.\* Good god, ignorance is hard to fight. \*With the possible exception of a few lunatics which any society has. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/34 "2011-01-30T19:38:17Z")
Hate to pile on here, but I would say protestant denominations (which make up most religious people in the US) would agree that suicide is a sin, but that has nothing to do with going to hell. According to the Bible we have all sinned. Sinning as your last act has nothing to do with your afterlife location. Only faith in Jesus Christ affects that. Sorry, I have nothing else to say. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/35 "2011-01-30T19:45:39Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I don’t think I’m relying on James Clavell, but I do have the impression that in certain circumstances suicide is looked on in Japan as a legitimate way of _making a point_, if that makes sense, in a way that wouldn’t be accepted in the West: e.g., [Yukio Mishima](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukio_Mishima) vs. [Budd Dwyer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Dwyer). But maybe I’m just going by pop culture impressions as well. How is Mishima and his act of seppuku regarded in Japan? Please see my response to **WhyNot**. He is regarded as a fanatical right wing nut, at least his political views. The ultraconservatives are throwbacks who want to return Japan to the “glory” it had in WWII, so if one or two of them were to pop themselves off, it wouldn’t surprise me. Would you be surprised if a gang member killed someone who dissed him? Does that mean that Americans condone or at least “understand” murder? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/36 "2011-01-30T19:49:12Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > Damn, missed this on the first time. > > 1. In Japan, if a businessman walked into their doctor and said he was considering suicide, the Japanese doctor would intervene. > > 2. It is not their culture to do this. > > 3. Their families would not be supportive of this. > > 4. He would be diagnosed as being depressed. > > No, it’s not hard at all if you stop confusing The Last Samurai with reality. The Japanese as a mysterious culture is so 80s. > > For the last time, Japanese do not consider suicide an honorable thing.\* > > Good god, ignorance is hard to fight. > > \*With the possible exception of a few lunatics which any society has. Yeah, if you start from the realization that different cultures do NOT view suicide differently than they do in the US, then the whole premise of the OP falls apart. It’s up to the OP, or those who share views similarly, to show that there are cultures where suicide IS viewed differently, and not just because that’s how Hollywood shows them. ---
**Author:** ![xoferew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/e9a140/32.png) [@xoferew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xoferew)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/37 "2011-01-30T20:34:26Z")
I browsed through this book online: Suicide and Economic Success in Modern Japan by Mamoru Iga. He found that "Generally, about one of every five Japanese persons justifies suicide in such situations as “a conflict between obligation and love,” “extreme poverty,” “love without parental approval,” “When a person loses face,” and “for self-sacrifice.” (Table 44) I’m thinking a smaller proportion of Americans would justify suicide in those cases. > **[The Thorn in the Chrysanthemum](https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=o4iblXNyRfQC&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&dq=japanese%2Battitudes%2Bsuicide&ots=bDLM5HRbfY&sig=rOtPjMWFqETUmTo_5d5IqadeYdg#v=onepage&q=japanese%20attitudes%20suicide&f=false)** > > Japanese society is frequently held up to the Western world as a model of harmony and efficiency, but the price it pays tends to be overlooked. In a searching analysis that will fascinate students and admirers of Japan as much as it will inform... ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/38 "2011-01-30T20:47:47Z")
> [@xoferew](#): > > I browsed through this book online: Suicide and Economic Success in Modern Japan by Mamoru Iga. > > He found that "Generally, about one of every five Japanese persons justifies suicide in such situations as “a conflict between obligation and love,” “extreme poverty,” “love without parental approval,” “When a person loses face,” and “for self-sacrifice.” (Table 44) > > I’m thinking a smaller proportion of Americans would justify suicide in those cases. > > [The Thorn in the Chrysanthemum: Suicide and Economic Success in Modern Japan - Mamoru Iga - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=o4iblXNyRfQC&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&dq=japanese+attitudes+suicide&ots=bDLM5HRbfY&sig=rOtPjMWFqETUmTo_5d5IqadeYdg#v=onepage&q=japanese%20attitudes%20suicide&f=false) I would be curious if you read it in Japanse, and if you are satisfied with the translation, particularly as it relates to the extreme differences in the way society is organized in Japan and in the US, and more particularly with the relationships between in-groups and outgroups, and the value and nature of consensus building? Such things matter deeply because in my experience, these concepts in Japanese don’t have counterparts in English, at least not without dipping into and understanding some pretty heavy academic jargon, and vice versa. As a student of Japanese language and culture, and having worked for 10 years bridging these issues for a living, I am skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![xoferew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/e9a140/32.png) [@xoferew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xoferew)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/39 "2011-01-30T20:50:33Z")
Sorry to double post but I found a couple more articles that seem relevant Japan: ending the culture of the ‘honourable’ suicide Reducing the growing suicide rate in Japan will require tackling the cultural interpretation of it as a noble act [http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/03/japan-honourable-suicide-rate\](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/03/japan-honourable-suicide-rate%5C) “In Japan, suicide does not have the Judaeo-Christian connotation of sin. Indeed, the inherited cultural notion of romanticised, noble suicide still lingers, especially among the older traditionalists. It would be a mistake to overplay this, but nevertheless the mindset is still apparent. Shintaro Ishihara, the right-wing governor of Tokyo, remarked that cabinet minister Matsuoka was a true Samurai because he had committed suicide to preserve his honour. Ishihara also recently wrote the screenplay for a film entitled “I go to die for you” – which glorified the kamikaze pilots’ self-sacrifice in the second world war.” > **[Death be not proud](https://www.economist.com/asia/2008/05/01/death-be-not-proud)** > > A rash of suicides horrifies Japan “Japan has one of the highest suicide rates among rich countries. Cultural factors are partly at play. Japanese society rarely lets people bounce back from the perceived shame of failure or bankruptcy. Suicide is sometimes even met with approval—as facing one’s fate, not shirking it. The samurai tradition views suicide as noble (though perhaps out of self-interest, since captured warriors were treated gruesomely). Japan’s main religions, Buddhism and Shintoism, are neutral on suicide, unlike Abrahamic faiths that explicitly prohibit it.” ---
**Author:** ![xoferew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/e9a140/32.png) [@xoferew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xoferew)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/40 "2011-01-30T21:02:44Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > I would be curious if you read it in Japanse, and if you are satisfied with the translation, particularly as it relates to the extreme differences in the way society is organized in Japan and in the US, and more particularly with the relationships between in-groups and outgroups, and the value and nature of consensus building? > > Such things matter deeply because in my experience, these concepts in Japanese don’t have counterparts in English, at least not without dipping into and understanding some pretty heavy academic jargon, and vice versa. > > As a student of Japanese language and culture, and having worked for 10 years bridging these issues for a living, I am skeptical. No, I did not read it in Japanese. But it seems like a straightforward survey, asking the question “Is suicide acceptable in the following situations?” and then listing each of the situations. It was given to high school as well as college students, so I don’t know how heavy the academic jargon could have been. I’m not sure how in-groups and consensus building affect the way a survey is completed? The survey is from 1961, so one could certainly object to it on the grounds of being out of date. I’m not trying to push the idea that the Japanese have a vastly different outlook on suicide from Americans, but I don’t think it’s so crazy that they have a slightly different take, with a slightly less negative view. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460.md?page=3)