# How does the US mental health profession view suicide in other cultures? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 30, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460 "2011-01-30T00:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/61 "2011-01-31T03:46:41Z")
> [@xoferew](#): > > It would be really helpful if you had a cite specifically about Japanese suicide, rather than rebut my survey graph by suggesting I obtain and read a general book about Japanese psychology. Is there something specific in the book you read that indicates it is off topic to comparing the sociology attitudes of suicide in Japanese society and US (or perhaps Western) society as we have been discussing? And is there something special about the cite you gave above? I didn’t really read other than what you summarized - the graph - but is is somehow broad and insightful and summarizing of a really complex field? Or is it simply a study among zillions? Can you compare and contrast the two for us? Why do you prefer one over the other? ---
**Author:** ![Hennessy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hennessy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hennessy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/62 "2011-01-31T04:14:22Z")
A lot of arguments on the straight dope are worthless in every way. Some questions are worthless in every way. The original question isn’t so bad for like “statistics” or something, which is fine. If the original poster reads this, I’m curious to know why this interests you. I suck with statistics but the cause of suicide is weakness. There really isn’t a point in going deeper than that unless your into psychology which imo is a waste of a persons valuable time. I took this from the original post “For example, the 9/11 hijackers were influenced by a culture that believes that they would actually be rewarded in the afterlife” Reread that and tell me how you don’t see weakness in that (the fact). Opinions and beliefs can be a deadly virus that can spread quickly. Although, not always, I’d still choose beliefs carefully while making my own opinion. Some people have to fit in though, to fit in and play it safe, follow the majority. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/63 "2011-01-31T04:24:33Z")
> [@Hennessy](#): > > I suck with statistics but the cause of suicide is weakness. There really isn’t a point in going deeper than that unless your into psychology which imo is a waste of a persons valuable time. What is it about psychology that makes it a waste of a person’s valuable time? Do you not consider the study of people’s behavior a worthwhile endeavor? Hmm. So you are not comfortable with arguments arising from statistics? Without statistics and broader math, what can we study at all? ---
**Author:** ![Hennessy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hennessy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hennessy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/64 "2011-01-31T05:17:51Z")
> [@](#): > > What is it about psychology that makes it a waste of a person’s valuable time? Do you not consider the study of people’s behavior a worthwhile endeavor? It’s a waste because it’s a waste…? Why would you push that any further…? I’m sorry, psychology is good for weak people…? I don’t know how to answer your question without knowing what human behavior you have a problem understanding. > [@](#): > > Hmm. So you are not comfortable with arguments arising from statistics? Without statistics and broader math, what can we study at all? How about I do the analyzing from now on? Hmm.? There you go thinking too much. I’m not comfortable when you throw stats is my face? You reworded my statement, added your own little tweaks, and turned it into a question… Why? Asking me these two questions shows me you have an issue with over-analyzing people. The whole “Hmm.” thing gave it away. You will never find progress because you can’t control other peoples mind. Pause for a second… So you may know why I feel this way but my feelings can change throughout the night and now you gotta reassess me? What a waste… Just give me my meds and let me go… Thanks for thinking you could help. Get a real job. Thats the least I know about you “_ **not\_alice** _” ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/65 "2011-01-31T05:49:48Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I’m still waiting for a cite that most Christians today consider suicide to be a sin. Can you name some recent theology books that ponder the issue of how great a sin it is? Can you tell us of great thundering sermons that you’ve heard from the pulpit warning that the surest way to hell is suicide? It’s my observation that most Christians today don’t even think about suicide when they worry about sin. So give us a citation that Christians today think of suicide as a sin or you’ve got nothing to start with. I thought that it was pretty much common sense, but I did find this related opinion poll: [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/24/opinion/polls/main657617.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/24/opinion/polls/main657617.shtml) > [@](#): > > Views on this issue differ significantly among different demographic groups. **White evangelical Christians and those who attend religious services weekly or almost every week most strongly oppose physician-assisted suicide: two-thirds of each group opposes it.** Keep in mind that this is \*physician-assisted \*suicide, which involves a patient with a terminal illness who has been screened for mental illness, their families consulted, etc. The notion that a group that opposes gay marriage would be cool with someone randomly blowing their brains out is completely absurd. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/66 "2011-01-31T06:14:05Z")
[quote=“Hennessy, post:64, topic:569460”] > [@](#): > > Pause for a second… So you may know why I feel this way but my feelings can change throughout the night and now you gotta reassess me? What a waste… Just give me my meds and let me go… Thanks for thinking you could help. Get a real job. [ Sure, what’s your poison? Aren’t you the one dabbling in the ultimate exercises in rational thinking in another thread? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/67 "2011-01-31T06:18:11Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > The notion that a group that opposes gay marriage would be cool with someone randomly blowing their brains out is completely absurd. Really? Are you open to changing that opinion if presented data otherwise? Cool! Please review the news in Uganda recently. And please view the film [8: The Mormon Proposition](http://www.mormonproposition.com/). Then will you please let us know what you think about that “notion”? ---
**Author:** ![Hennessy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hennessy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hennessy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/68 "2011-01-31T06:57:14Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Sure, what’s your poison? Aren’t you the one dabbling in the ultimate exercises in rational thinking in another thread? I don’t remember you anywhere else but this thread, forgive me. I was hoping your response would build my interest about you enough to go look at your threads but there is no character ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/69 "2011-01-31T07:06:30Z")
> [@Hennessy](#): > > I don’t remember you anywhere else but this thread, forgive me. I was hoping your response would build my interest about you enough to go look at your threads but there is no character OK. Thanks for your disinterest! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![xoferew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/e9a140/32.png) [@xoferew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xoferew)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/70 "2011-01-31T11:08:33Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Is there something specific in the book you read that indicates it is off topic to comparing the sociology attitudes of suicide in Japanese society and US (or perhaps Western) society as we have been discussing? > > And is there something special about the cite you gave above? I didn’t really read other than what you summarized - the graph - but is is somehow broad and insightful and summarizing of a really complex field? Or is it simply a study among zillions? > > Can you compare and contrast the two for us? Why do you prefer one over the other? Well, one I thought was useful in that it was available on the internet and could be read in a minute, while the other may be more edifying long term but requires leaving the house and finding it in a bookstore and then spending many hours reading the book. That’s quite an investment to participate in an internet thread. Since not many people reading this thread will take you up on reading it, it’s not going to add to the discussion much unless you are willing to summarize the relevant parts. I make no claims that my cite is broad or summarizing a complex field, but merely that it is a data point supporting my claim that Japanese people are slightly more accepting of suicide than American people. I have seen many cites of this nature on this board, which is why I felt it was appropriate to post. I’m happy to be refuted, but the bookstore is closed right now. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/71 "2011-01-31T14:03:54Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > Please see my response to **WhyNot**. He is regarded as a fanatical right wing nut, at least his political views. :rolleyes: Mishima, of course, not **WhyNot** who is not a fanatical right wing nut. > [@WhyNot](#): > > Ok, got it. Thanks. (I do mean that sincerely. I \*was \*still under the impression that, while not actually encouraged the way the novelists would have us believe, suicide for “disgrace” was tolerated and perhaps even met with silent approval by at least the older members of Japanese society. I now believe that to be outdated, so thank you.) Sorry for being snarky earlier, I have to fight ignorance both ways over here. > [@](#): > > What I was trying to do was to answer what I believed the question the OP to be asking: how health professionals in the US handle mental health care in a multicultural society. I’d give the same answer if the OP used the example of honor killing your daughter for having sex before marriage in a Palestinian family. It wouldn’t necessarily be considered a symptom of a mental illness, but it wouldn’t be allowed to happen unopposed if your family was in the US, no matter what your cultural background. Or the clitorectomy example I already gave. I think the question is interesting, but it’s unfortunately buried in false premises. > [@suranyi](#): > > Yeah, if you start from the realization that different cultures do NOT view suicide differently than they do in the US, then the whole premise of the OP falls apart. It’s up to the OP, or those who share views similarly, to show that there are cultures where suicide IS viewed differently, and not just because that’s how Hollywood shows them. Exactly. And going back to my earlier point, I could make a damn good case that Americans view murder as acceptable by pointing to Hollywood, rap music, network programming and superficial google searches of quotes by gangstras saying he did 'em right. I’ll even throw in respective murder rates between Japan and the US to “prove” it. All of these do not equate to how a “society” views something this complex, if you want to view whole nations as a monolith culture. Oh, we’re looking at an OP which wants to believe that there is one clear voice from “US mental health profession,” never mind. > [@xoferew](#): > > I browsed through this book online: Suicide and Economic Success in Modern Japan by Mamoru Iga. That’s an appropriate use of the word “browse” to means you used a browser to google for Japan +attitude +suicide. I’ll go through your some of your quotes this time, but I’m not going to get into an endless ground war of attrition. Google is faster than I am. Think about things, provide some actual reasoning or I’m out of here. > [@](#): > > He found that "Generally, about one of every five Japanese persons justifies suicide in such situations as “a conflict between obligation and love,” “extreme poverty,” **“love without parental approval,”** “When a person loses face,” and “for self-sacrifice.” (Table 44) Good god, this is a quote from 1961. Are you asking me, with a straight face to accept this, as any kind of representation of modern beliefs? Would you take of survey taken in American the same year (50 years ago!) of women’s role in society to look at current cultural attitudes? Look at the part bolded above, and tell me this is modern Japan. [/quote] > [@](#): > > I’m thinking a smaller proportion of Americans would justify suicide in those cases. Yes, I agree with you completely that less than 20% of Americans living today, in 2011 would agree that it’s acceptable to kill yourself because of “love without parental approval.” And your point is? And perhaps we can consider that close to, if not 0% of Japanese today would answer that question in the affirmative. > [@xoferew](#): > > Sorry to double post but I found a couple more articles that seem relevant > > Japan: ending the culture of the ‘honourable’ suicide > Reducing the growing suicide rate in Japan will require tackling the cultural interpretation of it as a noble act > [http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/03/japan-honourable-suicide-rate\](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/03/japan-honourable-suicide-rate%5C) > “In Japan, suicide does not have the Judaeo-Christian connotation of sin. Indeed, the inherited cultural notion of romanticised, noble suicide still lingers, especially among the older traditionalists. It would be a mistake to overplay this, but nevertheless the mindset is still apparent. Shintaro Ishihara, the **right-wing** governor of Tokyo, remarked that cabinet minister Matsuoka was a true Samurai because he had committed suicide to preserve his honour. Ishihara also recently wrote the screenplay for a film entitled “I go to die for you” – which glorified the kamikaze pilots’ self-sacrifice in the second world war.” Psst. Look at my quotne35, you are the one arguing that Japanese society as a whole looks up to suicide and I’m the one arguing that there are only right wing nuts with these views. Next time google for quotes from politicians who don’t propagate the belief that Koreans were poisoning the wells after the Great Kanto earthquake, and refer to Chinese by racial slurs. > [@](#): > > [http://www.economist.com/node/11294805](http://www.economist.com/node/11294805) > “Japan has one of the highest suicide rates among rich countries. Cultural factors are partly at play. Japanese society rarely lets people bounce back from the perceived shame of failure or bankruptcy. Suicide is sometimes even met with approval—as facing one’s fate, not shirking it. The samurai tradition views suicide as noble (though perhaps out of self-interest, since captured warriors were treated gruesomely).” OK, an unsupported statement in a random quote from a superficial article by a Western reporter whom we know nothing about their qualifications. Did you read all the way down to end of the article? Perhaps if you could explain to me how does a government-lead suicide prevention campaign, which is responsible for a 20% reduction in suicide help support your premise that _Japanese society_ looks favorably on the practice? Wouldn’t the government (in contrast to your favorite rightwing nut politicians) be better off encouraging people to pop themselves to take responsibility? Note too, the statistics in the article. They are correct that Japan does have a problem with suicide and there are far too many tragic losses of life. Japan does have its share of problems in society, as does any other country. Unfortunately, a high rate of suicide is one problem. However, the problem is not that suicide is high because it’s valued as a desired or even an accepted practice, but because the Japanese tend to try to endure through things without getting help. And all of your google searches still aren’t finding anything meaningful to substantiate your incorrect assumption that Japanese culture encourages suicide. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/72 "2011-01-31T14:12:39Z")
> [@xoferew](#): > > I make no claims that my cite is broad or summarizing a complex field, but merely that it is a data point **supporting my claim that Japanese people are slightly more accepting of suicide than American people.** I have seen many cites of this nature on this board, which is why I felt it was appropriate to post. I’m happy to be refuted, but the bookstore is closed right now. (bolding mine) Ah, no, your premise is that Japanese society looks up to and encourages suicide. I can help refresh your memory if you have forgotten: > [@](#): > > it is my understanding suicide is still honorable in Japan in situations where an individual has disgraced themselves or has otherwise landed in unfavorable circumstances, and would be stigmatized if they remained among the living. I say that is bullshit. Or have you abandoned your OP? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/73 "2011-01-31T14:18:41Z")
> [@xoferew](#): > > Okay, I found a Japanese site, in case that will be more meaningful to anyone. **No, I have not investigated in depth to see the credentials of the people that did this survey.** > > [http://www8.cao.go.jp/jisatsutaisaku/survey/report/2-3.html](http://www8.cao.go.jp/jisatsutaisaku/survey/report/2-3.html) (url coding removed by me to show the link) It took 5 seconds to decode that one. go.jp is the Japanese government. jisatsutaisaku is “suicide prevention” So we have a survey from a Japanese government agency which is trying to prevent suicides, not encourage them. Again, you’re helping me out in these arguments against the OP. If you abandon the OP, no one will be left. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/74 "2011-01-31T16:05:29Z")
> [@skdo23](#): > > It’s my understanding that in the US, the mainstream view among mental health professionals is that suicide is always the result of a diagnosable mental illness. They do have a point, since they are the ones who do the diagnosing. If they believe suicide or suicide attempts mean that you have a diagnosable mental illness, they are, pretty much by definition, right. I mean, it’s not like diagnosing cardiac arrythmia. There do not exist any standards by which a psychiatrist can be objectively judged to have made an incorrect diagnosis. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/75 "2011-01-31T17:07:05Z")
> [@xoferew](#): > > Well, one I thought was useful in that it was available on the internet and could be read in a minute, while the other may be more edifying long term but requires leaving the house and finding it in a bookstore and then spending many hours reading the book. That’s quite an investment to participate in an internet thread. Since not many people reading this thread will take you up on reading it, it’s not going to add to the discussion much unless you are willing to summarize the relevant parts. But you wrote: > [@](#): > > The most I can do is research the work of people who do seem to be experts, but it’s possible that I have been misled about the academic value of the book I found. If so, I will readily admit it. If you have a suggestion of something written in Japanese on the topic of Japanese suicide that you think is more accurate, I would humbly appreciate the opportunity to read it. I already did summarize teh work as I recall it, and I pointed a link to an online summary too. I don’t expect you to read two books an hour after I suggested themm, but I do expect better than you humbly asking for sources and then rejecting them because they are in book form. > [@](#): > > I make no claims that my cite is broad or summarizing a complex field, but merely that it is a data point supporting my claim that Japanese people are slightly more accepting of suicide than American people. I have seen many cites of this nature on this board, which is why I felt it was appropriate to post. I’m happy to be refuted, but the bookstore is closed right now. OK if that was your point, b ut that is not how it was expressed earlier: These are things you wrote earlier in this thread: > [@](#): > > Maybe in the US we rarely face situations where our life can be exchanged for something we consider more important, whereas in a situation like WW2 Japan or present day Iraq, people may feel this is their chance to make a difference to benefit what they love. > [@](#): > > From what I understand (I’m no expert) Japanese suicide is not discussed publicly in advance or generally “supported,” but rather can be “understandable” by other Japanese afterwards. It’s not a sin but it’s a tragic and uncommon decision. > > But supposing the Japanese person did tell, I would think the doctor would urge them not to commit suicide, and would provide resources to help, but would not think of it as mental illness. > [@](#): > > Yes, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean “understandable” as in “Well, it makes sense that he did that,” but as in “I can intellectually comprehend some people faced with those awful circumstances making that awful decision.” As compared with in the US where people would I think be more likely to view that decision as selfish or shameful or sinful. > [@](#): > > He found that "Generally, about one of every five Japanese persons justifies suicide in such situations as “a conflict between obligation and love,” “extreme poverty,” “love without parental approval,” “When a person loses face,” and “for self-sacrifice.” (Table 44) > > I’m thinking a smaller proportion of Americans would justify suicide in those cases. and so on … ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/76 "2011-01-31T17:14:01Z")
[QUOTE=AHunter3;13414081 I mean, it’s not like diagnosing cardiac arrythmia. There do not exist any standards by which a psychiatrist can be objectively judged to have made an incorrect diagnosis.[/QUOTE] Of course there are. The broad standard for diagnosis is DSM IV. Most if not all of the many entries there require many particular symptoms, which are not pulled out of thin air. There are standards methods for deciding the presence of each of the symptoms as well, for that you will have to look deeper into the literature for each one. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/77 "2011-01-31T19:50:36Z")
I’m not unfamiliar with the DSM IV. [QUOTE=DSM IV] Although the clinical presentation of schizophrenia varies widely among patients, certain signs and symptoms, though present to different degrees, are consistently present, and these include hallucinations, delusions, disorganized speech and catatonic or bizarre behavior. [/quote] Definitions are given in terms of things which, in the absence of yet more definitions, are wide open to interpretations. And _are_ such definitions given? Yes, but often with the same cascading problem, compounded with phrases that amount to “generally but not always” or “sometimes the opposite”. But OK, I overstated my case when I said there _do not exist any standards_. Be that as it may, there are no “confirm or rule it out” lab tests, making it still a very subjective endeavor, and in practice it remains true that any given mental illness exists where a psychiatrist said it exists. ---
**Author:** ![xoferew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/e9a140/32.png) [@xoferew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xoferew)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/78 "2011-01-31T23:02:57Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > (bolding mine) Ah, no, your premise is that Japanese society looks up to and encourages suicide. I can help refresh your memory if you have forgotten: > > I say that is bullshit. > > Or have you abandoned your OP? I just want to clarify, I am not the person who started this thread. That quote you are using to “refresh my memory” was by the OP, not me. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/79 "2011-01-31T23:18:15Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I’m not unfamiliar with the DSM IV. > > Definitions are given in terms of things which, in the absence of yet more definitions, are wide open to interpretations. And of course professionals trained to apply this standard are trained in those definitions, and how to assess them. It is not a book for the lay person to apply. > [@](#): > > And _are_ such definitions given? Yes, but often with the same cascading problem, compounded with phrases that amount to “generally but not always” or “sometimes the opposite”. Pretty sure the DSM IV is not self contained with regard to definitions. More on the broader point of the thread, can you confirm in your DSM IV that suicide itself is never sufficient to diagnose any particular illness, nor is suicide ideation. I think I recall an earlier discussion I had with you, if I am recalling the right person, I am sure you know that - but maybe the general public has a pretty loose idea of the difference between a symptom that is indicative of an illness and the illness itself when it comes to mental health. Maybe that is not clear to the wider public, and is at the heart of some errors in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![xoferew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/e9a140/32.png) [@xoferew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xoferew)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460/80 "2011-01-31T23:28:52Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > I already did summarize teh work as I recall it, and I pointed a link to an online summary too. I don’t expect you to read two books an hour after I suggested themm, but I do expect better than you humbly asking for sources and then rejecting them because they are in book form. Oh, I’m not rejecting the books at all. I appreciate your suggestions and I plan to look for them next time I’m at the Japanese bookstore. It’s just that I read Japanese slowly and I’m sure this thread will long gone by the time I’m finished! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-us-mental-health-profession-view-suicide-in-other-cultures/569460.md?page=5)