Is there something specific in the book you read that indicates it is off topic to comparing the sociology attitudes of suicide in Japanese society and US (or perhaps Western) society as we have been discussing?
And is there something special about the cite you gave above? I didn’t really read other than what you summarized - the graph - but is is somehow broad and insightful and summarizing of a really complex field? Or is it simply a study among zillions?
Can you compare and contrast the two for us? Why do you prefer one over the other?
A lot of arguments on the straight dope are worthless in every way. Some questions are worthless in every way. The original question isn’t so bad for like “statistics” or something, which is fine. If the original poster reads this, I’m curious to know why this interests you.
I suck with statistics but the cause of suicide is weakness. There really isn’t a point in going deeper than that unless your into psychology which imo is a waste of a persons valuable time.
I took this from the original post
“For example, the 9/11 hijackers were influenced by a culture that believes that they would actually be rewarded in the afterlife”
Reread that and tell me how you don’t see weakness in that (the fact).
Opinions and beliefs can be a deadly virus that can spread quickly. Although, not always, I’d still choose beliefs carefully while making my own opinion. Some people have to fit in though, to fit in and play it safe, follow the majority.
What is it about psychology that makes it a waste of a person’s valuable time? Do you not consider the study of people’s behavior a worthwhile endeavor?
Hmm. So you are not comfortable with arguments arising from statistics? Without statistics and broader math, what can we study at all?
It’s a waste because it’s a waste…? Why would you push that any further…? I’m sorry, psychology is good for weak people…? I don’t know how to answer your question without knowing what human behavior you have a problem understanding.
How about I do the analyzing from now on?
Hmm.? There you go thinking too much. I’m not comfortable when you throw stats is my face? You reworded my statement, added your own little tweaks, and turned it into a question… Why? Asking me these two questions shows me you have an issue with over-analyzing people. The whole “Hmm.” thing gave it away. You will never find progress because you can’t control other peoples mind.
Pause for a second… So you may know why I feel this way but my feelings can change throughout the night and now you gotta reassess me? What a waste… Just give me my meds and let me go… Thanks for thinking you could help. Get a real job.
Keep in mind that this is *physician-assisted *suicide, which involves a patient with a terminal illness who has been screened for mental illness, their families consulted, etc.
The notion that a group that opposes gay marriage would be cool with someone randomly blowing their brains out is completely absurd.
I don’t remember you anywhere else but this thread, forgive me. I was hoping your response would build my interest about you enough to go look at your threads but there is no character
Well, one I thought was useful in that it was available on the internet and could be read in a minute, while the other may be more edifying long term but requires leaving the house and finding it in a bookstore and then spending many hours reading the book. That’s quite an investment to participate in an internet thread. Since not many people reading this thread will take you up on reading it, it’s not going to add to the discussion much unless you are willing to summarize the relevant parts.
I make no claims that my cite is broad or summarizing a complex field, but merely that it is a data point supporting my claim that Japanese people are slightly more accepting of suicide than American people. I have seen many cites of this nature on this board, which is why I felt it was appropriate to post. I’m happy to be refuted, but the bookstore is closed right now.
:rolleyes: Mishima, of course, not WhyNot who is not a fanatical right wing nut.
Sorry for being snarky earlier, I have to fight ignorance both ways over here.
I think the question is interesting, but it’s unfortunately buried in false premises.
Exactly. And going back to my earlier point, I could make a damn good case that Americans view murder as acceptable by pointing to Hollywood, rap music, network programming and superficial google searches of quotes by gangstras saying he did 'em right. I’ll even throw in respective murder rates between Japan and the US to “prove” it.
All of these do not equate to how a “society” views something this complex, if you want to view whole nations as a monolith culture. Oh, we’re looking at an OP which wants to believe that there is one clear voice from “US mental health profession,” never mind.
That’s an appropriate use of the word “browse” to means you used a browser to google for Japan +attitude +suicide. I’ll go through your some of your quotes this time, but I’m not going to get into an endless ground war of attrition. Google is faster than I am. Think about things, provide some actual reasoning or I’m out of here.
Good god, this is a quote from 1961. Are you asking me, with a straight face to accept this, as any kind of representation of modern beliefs? Would you take of survey taken in American the same year (50 years ago!) of women’s role in society to look at current cultural attitudes? Look at the part bolded above, and tell me this is modern Japan.
[/quote]
Yes, I agree with you completely that less than 20% of Americans living today, in 2011 would agree that it’s acceptable to kill yourself because of “love without parental approval.” And your point is? And perhaps we can consider that close to, if not 0% of Japanese today would answer that question in the affirmative.
Psst. Look at my quotne35, you are the one arguing that Japanese society as a whole looks up to suicide and I’m the one arguing that there are only right wing nuts with these views. Next time google for quotes from politicians who don’t propagate the belief that Koreans were poisoning the wells after the Great Kanto earthquake, and refer to Chinese by racial slurs.
OK, an unsupported statement in a random quote from a superficial article by a Western reporter whom we know nothing about their qualifications. Did you read all the way down to end of the article? Perhaps if you could explain to me how does a government-lead suicide prevention campaign, which is responsible for a 20% reduction in suicide help support your premise that Japanese society looks favorably on the practice? Wouldn’t the government (in contrast to your favorite rightwing nut politicians) be better off encouraging people to pop themselves to take responsibility?
Note too, the statistics in the article. They are correct that Japan does have a problem with suicide and there are far too many tragic losses of life. Japan does have its share of problems in society, as does any other country. Unfortunately, a high rate of suicide is one problem. However, the problem is not that suicide is high because it’s valued as a desired or even an accepted practice, but because the Japanese tend to try to endure through things without getting help.
And all of your google searches still aren’t finding anything meaningful to substantiate your incorrect assumption that Japanese culture encourages suicide.
(url coding removed by me to show the link) It took 5 seconds to decode that one. go.jp is the Japanese government. jisatsutaisaku is “suicide prevention”
So we have a survey from a Japanese government agency which is trying to prevent suicides, not encourage them.
Again, you’re helping me out in these arguments against the OP. If you abandon the OP, no one will be left.
They do have a point, since they are the ones who do the diagnosing. If they believe suicide or suicide attempts mean that you have a diagnosable mental illness, they are, pretty much by definition, right.
I mean, it’s not like diagnosing cardiac arrythmia. There do not exist any standards by which a psychiatrist can be objectively judged to have made an incorrect diagnosis.
I already did summarize teh work as I recall it, and I pointed a link to an online summary too. I don’t expect you to read two books an hour after I suggested themm, but I do expect better than you humbly asking for sources and then rejecting them because they are in book form.
OK if that was your point, b ut that is not how it was expressed earlier:
These are things you wrote earlier in this thread:
[QUOTE=AHunter3;13414081
I mean, it’s not like diagnosing cardiac arrythmia. There do not exist any standards by which a psychiatrist can be objectively judged to have made an incorrect diagnosis.[/QUOTE]
Of course there are. The broad standard for diagnosis is DSM IV. Most if not all of the many entries there require many particular symptoms, which are not pulled out of thin air. There are standards methods for deciding the presence of each of the symptoms as well, for that you will have to look deeper into the literature for each one.
[QUOTE=DSM IV]
Although the clinical presentation of schizophrenia varies
widely among patients, certain signs and symptoms, though
present to different degrees, are consistently present, and
these include hallucinations, delusions, disorganized speech
and catatonic or bizarre behavior.
[/quote]
Definitions are given in terms of things which, in the absence of yet more definitions, are wide open to interpretations. And are such definitions given? Yes, but often with the same cascading problem, compounded with phrases that amount to “generally but not always” or “sometimes the opposite”.
But OK, I overstated my case when I said there do not exist any standards.
Be that as it may, there are no “confirm or rule it out” lab tests, making it still a very subjective endeavor, and in practice it remains true that any given mental illness exists where a psychiatrist said it exists.
And of course professionals trained to apply this standard are trained in those definitions, and how to assess them. It is not a book for the lay person to apply.
Pretty sure the DSM IV is not self contained with regard to definitions.
More on the broader point of the thread, can you confirm in your DSM IV that suicide itself is never sufficient to diagnose any particular illness, nor is suicide ideation.
I think I recall an earlier discussion I had with you, if I am recalling the right person, I am sure you know that - but maybe the general public has a pretty loose idea of the difference between a symptom that is indicative of an illness and the illness itself when it comes to mental health. Maybe that is not clear to the wider public, and is at the heart of some errors in this thread.
Oh, I’m not rejecting the books at all. I appreciate your suggestions and I plan to look for them next time I’m at the Japanese bookstore. It’s just that I read Japanese slowly and I’m sure this thread will long gone by the time I’m finished!
