# How does the USA's social safety net compare with those of the European welfare states? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841 "2013-09-14T13:03:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/21 "2013-09-14T20:56:09Z")
Is it true that, in the UK, a family of three can live comfortably without working, through public funds? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/22 "2013-09-14T21:20:52Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Is it true that, in the UK, a family of three can live comfortably without working, through public funds? No, see post 8. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/23 "2013-09-14T22:03:07Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Is it true that, in the UK, a family of three can live comfortably without working, through public funds? No, that is not the case. A family of three on public funds probably won’t starve to death or end up homeless, and their medical needs will be taken care of. But that’s not a life I’d call “comfortable”. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/24 "2013-09-14T22:40:52Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > My impression (and admittedly I’m not an super familiar will all of the European welfare systems) is that if you add up all the benefits one could theoretically qualify for, in most big states you’d end up with something comparable to what you’d get in one of the European countries with less generous benefits (although healthcare benefits are hard to quantify and compare). **PaulParkhead** ’s description of the UK system sounds pretty similar to the US one. However, the key difference is that very few of the benefits in the US are available to able-bodied people indefinitely, whereas in most European countries you can continue to qualify so long as you keep jumping through the hoops. Well, I’m not too familiar with the US system myself, and I do understand that it varies from one state to another. In the UK, the vast bulk of the welfare budget goes on state retirement pensions and housing assistance which is paid to private landlords. Everything else is a drop in the ocean compared to these things. But if we take a hypothetical unemployed single 30 year old man with no children who can show that he is actively seeking employment, and who lives in my area, he might receive: £57 per week Jobseekers Allowance, that’s to buy food and pay the bills £55 per week Housing Benefit - the going rate for a room in a shared apartment in this area. So, £112 per week (US$178). All medical care, dental care and prescriptions will be covered too, but if we assume able-bodied, that might not make too much difference. Folks over 35 can get a bit more. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/25 "2013-09-15T01:28:53Z")
Jobseekers Allowance is £71 a week. In London, in the bit where I am, the current Housing Benefit rate for a room in a shared house is £82 a week. This thread touches on something I’ve often wondered: What do those people who are unemployed but don’t get a job within six months do? I’m talking about people who through sheer bad luck or maybe a mild (undiagnosed) mental illness happen to end up still unemployed after six months. There must be some of them around. What do they do when the cheques stop coming in? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/26 "2013-09-15T01:42:29Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The reason we do not have UHC in the US is because of race. In the 1940s FDR and Truman wanted to create a UHC system. But southern politicians were afraid it would lead to integrated hospitals (and were probably afraid it meant white people would subsidize the health care of black people). So they gave up on UHC and settled for medicare and medicaid in the 1960s. I have never heard that before- would you mind citing a source? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/27 "2013-09-15T01:52:05Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > Jobseekers Allowance is £71 a week. In London, in the bit where I am, the current Housing Benefit rate for a room in a shared house is £82 a week. > > This thread touches on something I’ve often wondered: > > What do those people who are unemployed but don’t get a job within six months do? I’m talking about people who through sheer bad luck or maybe a mild (undiagnosed) mental illness happen to end up still unemployed after six months. > > There must be some of them around. What do they do when the cheques stop coming in? Contributory JSA(C) lasts for 26 weeks, but if you exhaust that, you can claim means-tested JSA(IB). That’s not limited to six months and theoretically, you could claim it indefinitely. Good luck with that, though - you’ll be farmed out to the Work Programme. Of course, JSA(IB) takes into account any savings, or the income of a partner, which JSA(C) does not. People who are too ill to work should claim ESA, not JSA. I was an ESA processor, for my sins. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/28 "2013-09-15T01:56:26Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > Jobseekers Allowance is £71 a week. In London, in the bit where I am, the current Housing Benefit rate for a room in a shared house is £82 a week. Yeah, I got the ages wrong. JSA is about £57 if you are under 25, and about £71 if you are over 25. The HB rate changes at 35. A single person over 35 is entitled to the one bedroom rate, not the shared apartment rate. Advising people on welfare benefits in the UK is a pain in the ass, but this is what I do. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/29 "2013-09-15T02:02:11Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Contributory JSA(C) lasts for 26 weeks, but if you exhaust that, you can claim means-tested JSA(IB). That’s not limited to six months and theoretically, you could claim it indefinitely. Good luck with that, though - you’ll be farmed out to the Work Programme. Yeah I meant people in the US. What do they do? > [@](#): > > Advising people on welfare benefits in the UK is a pain in the ass, but this is what I do. Me too ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/30 "2013-09-15T02:11:37Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Healthcare - Medicare provides health coverage for anyone over the age of 65. It is considered extremely good, even well off people typically use Medicare once they come of age as it is so good. Medicaid provides health coverage for people who qualify, qualifying is quite difficult based just on economic issues. Obamacare has expanded the criteria for qualifying for Medicaid, but each State gets to decide if it wishes to implement the Medicaid expansion. I believe the permanently disabled also receive Medicaid benefits, but theirs might be different. I know the Social Security Administration handles some aspects of benefits for the permanently disabled. It should be noted that by “disabled” these programs mean _permanently unable to work_ disabled, meaning someone missing a leg might not qualify because missing a limb doesn’t bar you from holding a job. So you have to be _very_ disabled to qualify, and many people folks would think are disabled aren’t under the program definitions. > [@](#): > > Housing - HUD provides different kinds of housing support. In some areas of the country you can wait for years as availability in the programs is limited, but we do have Federal housing benefits. As an example, in my area there is a ten year waiting list for public housing. > [@](#): > > Food - Food stamps are available based on income. Additionally, there is a program called “WIC” that gives additional food benefits to mother’s of young children. I believe WIC is automatic to anyone already on welfare, food stamps, or Medicaid. [nitpick] WIC stands for “women, infants, and children”. It’s not a benefit _just_ for young mothers. It is for pregnant and nursing women, infants, and young children. A single father, for example, might collect this on behalf of a young child to supplement the kid’s diet. Food stamps are about the only time-unlimited benefit left. > [@](#): > > Income - We have TANF, which is “traditional welfare” in that you receive a government check each month. There are State programs as well, TANF is limited to I believe five years of total benefit. Your description of unemployment benefits is fairly accurate, although unemployment has a State and Federal component, some States have longer benefit periods. The initial six months benefit of unemployment insurance is state funded. The extensions beyond that are Federally funded. You can only collect a maximum of 99 weeks of unemployment. Whether or not there are extensions granted past 6 months depends on the unemployment rate of the particular state in question. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/31 "2013-09-15T02:29:17Z")
> [@](#): > > It should be noted that by “disabled” these programs mean permanently unable to work disabled, meaning someone missing a leg might not qualify because missing a limb doesn’t bar you from holding a job. So you have to be very disabled to qualify, and many people folks would think are disabled aren’t under the program definitions. Disability through Social Security is a bit more complex. It does not necessarily involve being permanently unable to work, just completely unable to work now. Every few years the person has to rejustify that the disabling condition still exists. It does not preclude going to school. Example: A person who does primarily physical labor loses the use of a limb so that he/she can no longer do that job. He/She goes to school and learns to do a different job that doesn’t require that limb, and he can get off disability and start earning. However, if the person is unable to learn the necessary skills for, say, office work, upon proper documentation he may be able to continue on disability. Example: An apparently able-bodied person has a mental or neurological problem such that on any random day he/she may not be able to get out of bed or to interact with others. Every few years this has to be re-asserted and re-proven with current medical documentation. Example: If an office worker loses the use of his legs, he will most likely not be eligible for disability. His employer may be required to be sure the workplace is handicapped-accessible, but that’s usually the case anyway these days. ETA: It is very difficult to get the initial approval for disability. Almost everyone is turned down the first time. The persistent may appeal, hire a lawyer specializing in this problem, and may eventually be successful. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/32 "2013-09-15T02:36:47Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > Yeah I meant people in the US. What do they do? I think they starve or turn to crime. Or maybe get a job, it does happen. But not as often as is commonly assumed. The US has one of the worst rates of advancement in the developed world. The European welfare system is far more likely to help you into work than the American system. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/33 "2013-09-15T02:42:14Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > Yeah I meant people in the US. What do they do? > > Me too You’re another UK benefits adviser? Thank fuck! I sometimes think I’m the only one. ---
**Author:** ![MrBurger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MrBurger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrBurger)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/34 "2013-09-15T02:43:08Z")
I don’t know what welfare is like in Europe but the problem in the U.S. is that everything is based on family size and income. Basically if you’re like my brother-in-law with a wife and four kids and no skills with a lousy work history, you’re better off selling excess food stamps and subletting a section 8 apartment while earning money under the table. On the other hand I know people who do work and rely on the assistance because private sector employers are stingy and often don’t pay a living wage. The way I understand it, in a lot of Western Europe things like health care and assistance are available to more people who aren’t poor so that probably causes less resentment towards those programs. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/35 "2013-09-15T02:57:07Z")
I’ll certainly agree that the US is divided along race and class lines but it strike me as exceptionally naive to say that’s not true of much of Europe. Certainly many ethnic Turks in Germany and ethnic Algerians in France would laugh at the suggestion that there countries don’t have such problems. For that matter while I’d rather be a Pakistani in the UK than an Algerian in France, neither strikes me as terribly appealing. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/36 "2013-09-15T03:03:44Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > What do those people who are unemployed but don’t get a job within six months do? I’m talking about people who through sheer bad luck or maybe a mild (undiagnosed) mental illness happen to end up still unemployed after six months. > > There must be some of them around. What do they do when the cheques stop coming in? Well, if you’re not too old or sickly then there’s always the military. Thinking of people I know personally, they generally wind up moving back in with their parents or with another relative, friend, etc. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/37 "2013-09-15T03:06:31Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’ll certainly agree that the US is divided along race and class lines but it strike me as exceptionally naive to say that’s not true of much of Europe. Certainly many ethnic Turks in Germany and ethnic Algerians in France would laugh at the suggestion that there countries don’t have such problems. > > For that matter while I’d rather be a Pakistani in the UK than an Algerian in France, neither strikes me as terribly appealing. But the UK welfare system takes no account of your ethnicity. It’s not information that’s recorded. Now, is there racism in the UK? Yes, I imagine so, but that’s a different question. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/38 "2013-09-15T03:08:00Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Well, if you’re not too old or sickly then there’s always the military. Thinking of people I know personally, they generally wind up moving back in with their parents or with another relative, friend, etc. But if you _aren’t_ interested in killing people, what would you do? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/39 "2013-09-15T03:20:05Z")
A lot of people move into some kind family member’s basement or back bedroom and try to live as unobtrusively as possible. Perhaps they cobble together a patchwork of odd jobs (babysitting), part-time/seasonal work, or community college courses to keep themselves sane. Being religious probably helps too. People who lack family willing to help them out do suffer. But don’t forget that there are non-profit charities that provide some services. Stuff like food banks and YMCA really make a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841/40 "2013-09-15T03:25:12Z")
Sure, a lot of people wind up couchsurfing, but there are still thousands of homeless people in the US and whenever I hear about how shelters and food banks make such a difference I can’t help but remember the two times I was on my way to work in Chicago and happened upon a homeless person frozen to death in the winter, that is, dead from lack of shelter. Clearly, the system is not perfect. Americans are not as kind and generous as they’d like to believe they are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-the-usas-social-safety-net-compare-with-those-of-the-european-welfare-states/668841.md?page=3)