# How does TX requiring State ID violate VRA? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657 "2013-08-31T14:07:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/21 "2013-09-01T01:15:11Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s a pretty low threshold for a “cushy job”. Perhaps ‘cushy’ was the wrong word. I used it because most of the jobs throughout my life were ones where I was tied to the clock. I consider the fact that I am able to arrange my schedule to accommodate the little hassles of my life as adding some ‘cushy-ness’ to my job. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/22 "2013-09-01T01:23:25Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > I agree - so everyone should have to prove they’re a citizen and over 18 - is that so huge a burden? Nope, not a burden if ID is easily available and free of charge. By “easily available” I mean that one should not have to lose wages or queue up for hours to get the required document, and that those who are unable to drive should not be disadvantaged, as I don’t believe that ability to drive is a requirement for a US citizen who wishes to vote. ---
**Author:** ![eastcheap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@eastcheap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eastcheap)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/23 "2013-09-01T02:42:57Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > If you need to get a copy of your birth certificate and it is going to cause you to have to skip lunches for a week to afford it and you will need to take at least a half day off of work to travel to the issuing office then I’d say that constitutes a bit of a burden. In Texas, the issuing office is in Austin, so most applications are made by mail. Of course, if you were born out-of-state, you’ll have to deal with some other state’s bureaucracy. Naturally, Texas doesn’t let you off without a dose of Catch-22 weirdness: On the one hand, the state [website](http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/vs/reqproc/certified_copy.shtm) states that two supporting documents are sufficient to prove identity, provided at least one bears your signature. On the other, the [application form](http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/vs/reqproc/forms/vs-142.3.pdf) states, in red letters, “APPLICATIONS WITHOUT PHOTO ID WILL NOT BE PROCESSED.” Unless you have a military ID or passport, a birth certificate is pretty much required to obtain a state ID (see [http://texasdriverslicenses.org/id\_cards.html](http://texasdriverslicenses.org/id_cards.html)). Moreover, I suspect that a lot of people have original birth certificates that are no longer considered acceptable. All in all, kind of a PITA, and certainly more difficult than when I got my driver’s license thirty years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/24 "2013-09-01T03:38:26Z")
OP certainly knows how to rock the abbreviations. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/25 "2013-09-01T04:09:51Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > If you can’t be bothered to have the very minimal, most basic way of identifying who you are, then you don’t deserve to vote for people who are going to have an impact on my life. Are you really unable to imagine that there are people in our society who live their lives quite differently from the way you do? ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/26 "2013-09-01T04:15:46Z")
> [@Mr\_Downtown](#): > > Are you really unable to imagine that there are people in our society who live their lives quite differently from the way you do? No, because as far as I know, being able to prove you’re a citizen of the United States IS a requirement for many, many reasons and for many, many benefits. Voting should be one of them. If its not, then we may as well erase all borders and just start singing Kumbayah together. Wouldn’t that be nice? If you can’t be bothered to have proof of citizenship to vote, then you shouldn’t vote. If its not important enough to you to provide proof, then it’s not important enough for you to vote. Period. Paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/27 "2013-09-01T04:19:06Z")
How exactly would three-quarters of American citizens (those without passports) prove their citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/28 "2013-09-01T04:21:40Z")
Don’t be obtuse. How do 3/4 of American citizens get driver’s licenses - OR passport for that matter? OR Social Security cards. OR register for the draft? Etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/29 "2013-09-01T05:20:22Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > Don’t be obtuse. How do 3/4 of American citizens get driver’s licenses - OR passport for that matter? OR Social Security cards. OR register for the draft? Etc etc. Chief Inspector: _“How does an idiot become a policeman? Answer me that!”_ Insp. Clouseau: _“Eet is sehm-pul. He applahys, lahk ayverone else.”_ The problem is that the majority of us have grown up with the necessary documentation and have inherited it from our parents. Others have accumulated the appropriate documentation by convenience and luck, in the good old days before 9/11 and the Patriot Act. It used to be that it took very little to get a license; even al Qeda visitors could get them in whatever name they chose. (hence resulting in the present catch-22 mess). The whole plot of the _Day of the Jackal_ is based around that at the time (early 1960’s) it was trivial to get a passport based on a birth certificate anyone could apply for, probably in the name of a deceased baby with the right range of birth date. You hda a copy of your birth certificate, got a student ID because nobody really questioned your assertion who you were for that, you could show a copy of your student ID or an electricity bill and get a driver’s license, a letter from a minister or doctor or lawyer (who probably never asked you for ID) plus birth certificate, was sufficient to vouch for your passport (at least, in Canada). Military ID, additional documentation like pilot’s license, hinting license, old passport, ID badge from work, health insurance card, credit cards, maybe even a criminal record… You accumulate a crust of supporting documentation that makes it easy to replace any piece that goes missing. I’m still running off a small birth certificate my father obtained and laminated in the late 1950’s. Now imagine you’ve been on skid row, or worked minimum wage jobs for the last 20 years, you have had no car or passport or credit cards - probably how a significant part of the country lives… Where do you start? As far as the system is concerned, unless they arrested and fingerprinted you, the system does not believe you exist. Heck, even if the did, AFAIK DMV does not take “look me up on the police database” as proof for a license. Or imagine like another significant chunk of the population, you have had one or some or all of these documents at one time, but lost them - fire, had to leave your place suddenly, no home so your stuff got tossed… Try this as a simple exercise. You know who you are. You live across the country from any family, if you have even seen them in 20 years. How would you go about beginning the catch-22 situation of starting your documentation if you had zero ID for some reason? Can’t get a license without a birth certificate. Can’t get a birth certificate without… ID? Can’t get a birth certificate in person unless you travel halfway across the country. Google the mess with Puerto Rico birth certificates, most of the ones before 2000 were invalidated and need to be re-issued. You’re assuming everyone has a mess of credit cards, travels with an accumulating pile of family albums, old documents, copies of back tax returns, a few years of utility bills… Many people start fresh with not much more than a suitcase of clothes. Others live a few miles from where they were born and have never had to have documentation because everyone knows them and they’ve never had the money to do anything that need ID. (My suggestion is simple - if you are so worried about fraud, anyone who wants to vote, does not have ID - (a) take a thumbprint and (b) dip their finger in purple dye like a third world voting system. Heck, with modern digital technology, take their picture too.) ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/30 "2013-09-01T08:48:43Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Heck, even if the did, AFAIK DMV does not take “look me up on the police database” as proof for a license. In this state, DMV requires you give a fingerprint to get ID. But you CANNOT use your fingerprint to get a replacement ID. It’s insane. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/31 "2013-09-01T09:17:24Z")
As an additional complication Texas requires you prove state residence via things like multiple utility bills in your name at your address to get even a state ID card or DL. I see now that at least on the website it says if you cannot produce proof of residence they will let you swear out an affidavit, this was not offered as an option to me many years ago by the DMV. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/32 "2013-09-01T12:01:13Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > I agree - so everyone should have to prove they’re a citizen and over 18 - is that so huge a burden? You say you agree and then go on to completely disagree. I said if you are a citizen, you can vote. You say if you can prove you are a citizen, you can vote. Being a citizen and proving you are a citizen are entirely different things. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/33 "2013-09-01T12:39:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I never said that they did need to. I said that what they were doing was in violation of the Voting Rights Act. Something can be in violation of a law and yet legal, if the relevant law (or portion thereof) has been overturned by the courts. That’s an absolutely facile and absurd idea of how to communicate. By stating that an act violates a certain law but failing to disclose that the law in question was itself nullified by court decision, you present what amounts to a tremendously deceptive claim. In a discussion of, say, Obama firing Hagel, I cannot imagine anyone announcing that Obama’s action would violate the Tenure In Office Act, getting called on it, and then offering this defense. That section of the Voting Rights Act is no longer law. In GD, I suppose you might be able to wriggle around on this point. But in GQ, the focus is on a factual answer. Your answer did not accurately reflect the current state of the Voting Rights Act, as it stands following the Court’s decision in _Shelby County_. > [@](#): > > And many people, if they made the same basic, minimal effort you or I had to make, would find themselves on the bus a quarter of the way to the ID office before turning around and going back to work. You can’t require everyone to make the same basic minimal effort until you ensure that it is, in fact, the same effort. That’s simply your opinion, and not a matter of law. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/34 "2013-09-01T12:44:53Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > No, because as far as I know, being able to prove you’re a citizen of the United States IS a requirement for many, many reasons and for many, many benefits. Voting should be one of them. If its not, then we may as well erase all borders and just start singing Kumbayah together. Wouldn’t that be nice? > > If you can’t be bothered to have proof of citizenship to vote, then you shouldn’t vote. If its not important enough to you to provide proof, then it’s not important enough for you to vote. Period. Paragraph. I agree with the sentiment, but offer the same objection as I did above: how is this a factual answer to the factual question? This is your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/35 "2013-09-01T13:55:59Z")
Again, there are many people who are just _cannot_ provide 100% of the paperwork required to get a state issued ID. The government records system is _far_ from perfect. Records get lost, misfiled, never existed in the first place, etc. Note that this is _not_ the same as establishing identity and hence establishing citizenship. These requirements typically go much farther than the basics. E.g., documenting every name change due to marriage/divorce or adoption, etc. The more such records are required, the more likely someone is going to encounter something wrong. In addition, you have to prove to the states holding these records that you are you in order to get copies. This can quickly turn into a Catch-22 nightmare. Or it can be absurd the other way. **Mrs. FtG** in last renewing her drivers license needed to get a lot of docs from another state. To do that, they required a photocopy of her _current_ drivers license! So we copied that, sent in the forms, got the copies back, sent those in and got a new drivers license. A completely absurd situation. Thankfully she had an existing license. If she didn’t, it would have been a mess. If the state has been recognizing you as you for decades, then they should continue to accept that. It should be up do to the state to put in the effort to dispute such a long standing matter. This is why we have statute of limitations laws. After decades, trying to prove some old fact is no longer reliable in all cases. And all to prevent a tiny number of unqualified voters! The notion that there are millions of non-citizens trying to vote has no basis in reality. It’s not even in the thousands. Don’t be fooled by scare tactics. _ **I hate to beat a dead horse, but getting all of docs required for these idiotic new laws can be extremely difficult to impossible. I have no idea how many times people have to be told this.** _ ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/36 "2013-09-01T18:16:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Bricker** : > > That’s an absolutely facile and absurd idea of how to communicate. By stating that an act violates a certain law but failing to disclose that the law in question was itself nullified by court decision, you present what amounts to a tremendously deceptive claim. The OP apparently knows that Texas is, in fact, somehow violating the VRA, and also knows that they’re getting away with it. Combining these, one deduces that the OP is already aware of the much-publicized fact that a recent court decision struck down the VRA, and that Texas had waited until such decision to implement its current requirements. I saw no need to repeat information that the OP already knew. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/37 "2013-09-01T22:18:53Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > It depends on your circumstances. If you have a copy of your birth certificate already…If you need to get a copy of your birth certificate and it is going to cause you to have to skip lunches for a week to afford it and you will need to take at least a half day off of work to travel to the issuing office then I’d say that constitutes a bit of a burden. > [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > It’s not always easy even when you have lots of documentation. A 96-year-old woman in Tennessee was denied a photo voter ID because she only had [her lease, rent receipt, birth certificate, and voter ID card](http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2011/oct/05/marriage-certificate-required-bureaucrat-tells/). She was long retired, didn’t drive, her housing complex photo ID or SS card had been enough up until then, and the denial was because they wanted legal proof of her name change via marriage and she didn’t have a copy of her marriage license… > [@ftg](#): > > Getting the necessary docs for a state ID is a nightmare for large numbers of people. > > Women in particular are hard hit due to the need to document every marriage and divorce. Sometimes it is just not possible to adequately track down all the paperwork. > > So many thousands of people are deprived of their right to vote (and drive, etc.) while barely a handful of fraudulent voters are caught. > > Logic says this is a Bad Idea. So, if logic isn’t the reason for doing this, what is? (Note that the head of the PA GOP as well as the bill’s sponsor have been quite [explicit](http://colorlines.com/archives/2013/07/the_official_full_trial_for.html) about this.) The US government seems to be pretty keen on intelligence and making sure that they track everyone’s movements. How hard would it be to have a “processing center” where people without ID could go and where government officials would take fingerprints, DNA samples, copies of documents the person _does_ have, and then correlate that with the massive storehouse of data they have to put two and to together and come up with a comprehensive background check that confirms the person’s identity and gets them an ID? Since we already spend lots of money transporting prisoners around here and there, it would seem that we could spend a few dollars to provide a complimentary “pickup” for wannabe-ID holders to be transported to their closest Citizen Identity Discernment center. Disadvantage, of course, is that if your background check turns up as you being a foreigner without a valid visa, they already have you in their grasp and please step on this plane to be deported, sir. “I see that you don’t have ID. Don’t worry, please step into this room here for fingerprinting. Now that we have your fingerprints, we’re going to run them through the big computer here and let’s see, what documents did you bring? Oh, an elementary school transcript with the name of Clara P. Jones and parent’s name of Miles K. Jones from Cleveland, let’s put that in too. Ding! Computer says your fingerprints match a Clara Jones who was arrested for vandalism at age 18, and we matched the names against a marriage certificate issued in Atlanta for a Clara Paula Jones, daughter of Miles Kevin Jones, to marry a John Percival Smith, son of Hugh Robert Smith. You seem to be a US Citizen, we found a birth certificate from Michigan for a Clara Paula Jones, child of Miles John Jones and Amanda Ann Robinson. The father’s middle name doesn’t match but we found a college yearbook article mentioning that Miles Jones, class of ‘23, changed his middle name, and we verified your father’s college enrollment address as listed in his registration with his parents’ house in Newark, New Jersey, and that same address turns up in an essay you wrote in 4th grade called “All about grandpa”. You must be Mrs. Clara Jones Smith, right? The computer is always right! Here’s your ID, ma’am!” How hard would that be? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/38 "2013-09-02T00:16:59Z")
> [@](#): > > How hard would that be? Politically speaking? Absolutely impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/39 "2013-09-02T01:19:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The OP apparently knows that Texas is, in fact, somehow violating the VRA, and also knows that they’re getting away with it. Combining these, one deduces that the OP is already aware of the much-publicized fact that a recent court decision struck down the VRA, and that Texas had waited until such decision to implement its current requirements. I saw no need to repeat information that the OP already knew. Here is the OP: > [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > **How does TX requiring State ID violate VRA?** > They would want you to have a state ID to vote. If you’re a citizen, why is this hard to accomplish? How does it violate minorities? Nothing in the OP remotely supports the assertion that the OP “knows” Texas is somehow violating the VRA. That’s an absolutely false statement. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657/40 "2013-09-02T01:21:54Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s a pretty low threshold for a “cushy job”. One of the things that annoys me is when people say that so-and-so doesn’t get any paid vacation time and therefore they can’t take _any_ time off because _zomg you know they don’t get paid leave, they’re gonna like starve!11!one_. It’s as if the concept of taking a small amount of unpaid leave to get something important done can’t possibly be worth it because getting your full paycheck every single month is worth sacrificing everything else for. Can’t see the doctor, don’t get paid leave. I’d rather get sick and die than have my paycheck docked. Yeah. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-does-tx-requiring-state-id-violate-vra/667657.md?page=3)