# How easily could people start a fire before matches and lighters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 28, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606 "2011-12-28T05:46:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/61 "2016-02-08T07:37:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Africa and Australia, yes, but there are no H/Gs in South America or New Guinea any more. There are pastoralists who still hunt and gather, but they all cultivate crops of some sort. I can assure you, there are no hunter gatherers in Australia. I doubt there are any left in Africa any more either. ---
**Author:** ![Tallus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6de8d8/32.png) [@Tallus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tallus)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/62 "2016-02-08T09:33:12Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Is your “flint” artificial ferrocerium, or are you using actual steel and stone? I’ve gotten char cloth to catch easily with artificial flint (which sparks much hotter) but never with sparks struck off steel. I think I must be doing something wrong. > > P.S. considering that even the poorest people in the world wear eighth-generation markdown clothing made in the West, maybe matches are actually cheap enough for even the most impoverished, especially if locally manufactured. Yep - I use an artificial ‘flint’ that came with the kit on eBay, although I have used genuine flint found when field walking. Also used iron pyrites when I have one which works better. ‘Natural’ sparks generally seem to be harder to produce than ‘artificial’ ones, and it takes more time and care to get a fire up this way. More careful preparation of the natural tinder - tinder must be bone dry as you all know. Use of natural accelerants like sap and resin. My own practical results in fire making are certainly not how ‘real’ rural communities function - buying Ray Mears kits on the internet! I wanted to find out how people make fire these days in poorer regions of the world without access matches or lighters or hi-tech gadgets, (matches cheap enough and accessible enough so question answered) Rural communities in NW India was the area I am particular interested in. Thanks for all the replies - very helpful Tallus ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/63 "2016-02-08T10:28:10Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > Charred cloth was mentioned several times, but was not likely found in anyone’s tinderbox in the 18th century, cloth being an expensive commodity. Charred punk wood was much more common. 18th century tinderboxes commonly contained a length of charred rope, rather than cloth. The selling of worn out hemp ropes to tinder box merchants was one of the many ways to get “money for old rope”. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/64 "2016-02-08T12:49:14Z")
It was very difficult to start a fire way back when this thread was started. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/65 "2016-02-08T13:11:46Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I can assure you, there are no hunter gatherers in Australia. > > I doubt there are any left in Africa any more either. Very, very few in Africa. And those that are there aren’t completely isolated. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/66 "2016-02-08T15:59:50Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > …We’re on a planet where most of the world is less than a mile away from a bottle of Coke… Rhetoric or fact? If latter, I’d love a cite. Also: did someone mention the Burgess (I think) movie In Search of Fire? If they haven’t, I just did. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/67 "2016-02-08T16:02:52Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I can assure you, there are no hunter gatherers in Australia. > > I doubt there are any left in Africa any more either. I had thought some of the possibly uncontacted or minimally contacted Papua New Guinea tribes were still largely HGs, or very close to it (I’m not sure if we immediately DQ anyone who has ever planted something to harvest later or not.) I know some missionaries in the Amazon describing groups like the Pirahã described what sounded like HGs to me, but I’m certainly not an expert on the uncontacted/minimally contacted peoples of the world. My main point was just the “third world peoples living like Cro-Magnon man” idea I think was in some people’s heads when they imagined people in Africa making fire with something like a fire bow isn’t really reflective of reality–most Africans have access to various aspects of modern technology and things like matches (which being tiny sticks coated in a cheap compound on the tip aren’t exactly akin to iPhones or airplanes in terms of technological sophistication.) ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/68 "2016-02-08T16:06:13Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > …(I’m not sure if we immediately DQ anyone who has ever planted something to harvest later or not.)… 😕 “DQ”? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/69 "2016-02-08T16:09:20Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > 😕 “DQ”? Disqualify–a sporting acronym. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/70 "2016-02-08T16:51:11Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Rhetoric or fact? If latter, I’d love a cite. I can’t find a statistic, unfortunately. But Coca Cola’s distribution system, which reaches down to the smallest local distributors, is legendary. Certainly there are very few places in Africa, however remote, where you can’t get a Coke, at least on market day. I’ve personally seen crates hand carried to inaccessible cliff-side villages and carted by donkey to remote outposts deep in the forest. Indeed, public health professionals are teaming up with Coca Cola to use their distribution savvy to distribute medication to remote areas. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/71 "2016-02-08T21:53:23Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I had thought some of the possibly uncontacted or minimally contacted Papua New Guinea tribes were still largely HGs… It;s possible, but less likely than you probably think because most of the uncontacted NG tribes were farming villagers. There were HGs in the more remote areas, but they were a minority group and seem to have very rapidly moved into towns as soon as that became feasible. > [@](#): > > I know some missionaries in the Amazon describing groups like the Pirahã described what sounded like HGs to me… To the extent that the Piraha cultivate manioc and other crops they don’t qualify. To the extent that they traditionally were farmers they don’t qualify. To the extent that they survive today by trading with farmers for tools and food, they don’t qualify. > [@](#): > > most Africans have access to various aspects of modern technology and things like matches (which being tiny sticks coated in a cheap compound on the tip aren’t exactly akin to iPhones or airplanes in terms of technological sophistication.) Very true. It’s hard to think of any group of people anywhere who wouldn’t have access to matches and lighters. Smoking is a major problem in “rural communities in NW India” or remote Aboriginal communities. The Piraha trade with neighbouring groups for items including matches. I don’t imagine that anyone anywhere doesn’t have access to matches. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/72 "2016-02-08T23:06:58Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I can assure you, there are no hunter gatherers in Australia. > > I doubt there are any left in Africa any more either. It’s arguable. There are tribes in both places that ostensibly try to hold onto a H/G lifestyle, but as you noted in another post, they could easily be disqualified because they trade with farming communities to some extent. I think at this point we should recognize that no true H/Gs exist in the world, even if there are some groups could be viewed as living partially as H/Gs and who do their best to eschew a pastoral lifestyle, even while trading from time to time with pastoral peoples. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/73 "2016-02-08T23:35:13Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > When I was in Camp Fire Girls, I used to coat strike-anywhere matches with fingernail polish. I tried coating them in wax, but in the Texas summers, I’d usually find that the wax melted. > > On a somewhat related subject, how does one bank a fire so that it will be ready to burn the next day? I have frequently read about people doing this, but no description is given. I grew up in a house with a coal furnace that we banked every night (else it would burn out from using up all the fuel) and got going full every morning. Basically, you closed the damper which greatly reduced the available oxygen. As I write this, I am wondering why this wouldn’t lead to CO poisoning, but it apparently didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/74 "2016-02-08T23:36:15Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > Flint and steel dates back to Roman times. I made one out of an old file and also can strike sparks from the back of my Mora knife. Flint and pyrite predates that and was, I believe, the method used in wheellock guns. > > Charred cloth was mentioned several times, but was not likely found in anyone’s tinderbox in the 18th century, cloth being an expensive commodity. Charred punk wood was much more common. > > I personally carry a couple of lighters, a Clipper which has a removable striker, and a weather proof torch lighter. I have had problems with both of these in cold weather. However, when I go camping, I carry cotton balls smeared with vaseline. This can be lit with the striker from the Clipper and will light even marginal tinders. I also keep a small Altoids tin for use as a tinderbox and some rubber inner tube. > [@Tallus](#): > > Yep - I use an artificial ‘flint’ that came with the kit on eBay, although I have used genuine flint found when field walking. Also used iron pyrites when I have one which works better. ‘Natural’ sparks generally seem to be harder to produce than ‘artificial’ ones, and it takes more time and care to get a fire up this way. More careful preparation of the natural tinder - tinder must be bone dry as you all know. Use of natural accelerants like sap and resin. Artificial flint isn’t just a convenience, the sparks it produces are much hotter than true flint and steel- hot enough to exceed the kindling point of many materials. With artificial flint you can get a flame directly from “flash” tinder such as nettledown or milkweed dander. With natural flint and steel you can’t; you can only get an ember which you can then blow into a flame. And afaik even that only works with charred material that is nearly pure carbon; below the flash point, the volatile content of tinder will produce a net loss of heat by vaporizing. Sure flint and steel was how it was done, but the necessity of having previously prepared char cloth limits its utility today. If I were to carry a prepared fire starter with me, it would be a lighter, matches, a striker, a magnifying mirror, etc. Flint, steel, and charcloth is at best an improvement in speed and portability over a bow drill. I consider this an emergency backup fire-starting method, something you’d use in a survival situation when more convenient methods had been exhausted. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/75 "2016-02-08T23:47:25Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > I grew up in a house with a coal furnace that we banked every night (else it would burn out from using up all the fuel) and got going full every morning. Basically, you closed the damper which greatly reduced the available oxygen. As I write this, I am wondering why this wouldn’t lead to CO poisoning, but it apparently didn’t. Probably because the CO produced is low and the house wasn’t sealed that well, being an older house. CO poisoning is a function both of a source of CO in the house and the house not venting enough so that the CO can build up. Lots of residential homes have gas leaks that never cause problems–sometimes they’re discovered by inspectors that gas companies send out, patched, and the home owner would never have known if that hadn’t happened. It all depends on the ability of the CO to get to a dangerous concentration. Plus, the damper itself on an old coal furnace probably isn’t an air tight seal when it’s closed, it’s enough it’ll fill the house with nasty smoke if you close it when it’s going full bore, but some small amount of air is going to seep through it–for a very low smoldering ember that might be enough to vent a large portion (if not all) of the lingering CO produced. If you set a few (say 3) pieces of charcoal on fire in a container in the middle of your living room, replacing one anytime it burned up, you could probably do that forever and never have CO poisoning effects. It’s probably not dissimilar to running a kerosene heater indoors, which used to be super common in many countries (including the United States.) And which only required a very small step like cracking a window slightly open to prevent any serious problems. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/76 "2016-02-09T09:03:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s arguable. There are tribes in both places that ostensibly try to hold onto a H/G lifestyle No, there are no tribes in Australia that make any pretence at trying to hold onto a H/G lifestyle. All Aboriginal tribes in Australia receive welfare payments, live in brick houses and and obtain the majority of their calories from processed food. In no possible sense is any Australian tribe living a HG lifestyle, no do they pretend to or aspire to. Blake (Who spent last week in one of the most remote communities in the country.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/77 "2016-02-09T14:28:40Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I can assure you, there are no hunter gatherers in Australia. > > I doubt there are any left in Africa any more either. There are still some Bushmen troops who live as exclusive H-Gs (consciously, as in they actively try and retain the lifestyle for ideological reasons) but they do make tourism money so H&G is not their only subsistence - but they don’t farm at all. And 300-400 Hadza, last I checked, are still H-Gs. Probably less than 1000 or so HGs in Africa, total. Elsewhere, I don’t think the Inuit have taken up farming, just yet…but not sure how much of their food is imported. And as to the OP, IME the Bushmen use matches and Bic lighters to start fires. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/78 "2016-02-09T15:04:09Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > No, there are no tribes in Australia that make any pretence at trying to hold onto a H/G lifestyle. All Aboriginal tribes in Australia receive welfare payments, live in brick houses and and obtain the majority of their calories from processed food. > > In no possible sense is any Australian tribe living a HG lifestyle, no do they pretend to or aspire to. > > Blake > (Who spent last week in one of the most remote communities in the country.) The [Pila Nguru](http://www.academia.edu/414644/Scott_Cane_Pila_Nguru_The_Spinifex_People_Book_Review_) people (a very small tribe) have returned to their native lands and do make some pretense of living a traditional, H/G lifestyle, even if they are not completely cut off from modern society. I would hesitate to call them true H/Gs, but it would be a mistake to say that they do not “pretend to or aspire to”. They are sometimes called “the invisible people”, so maybe you missed them in your week in a remote part of Australia. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/79 "2016-02-09T21:45:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The [Pila Nguru](http://www.academia.edu/414644/Scott_Cane_Pila_Nguru_The_Spinifex_People_Book_Review_) people (a very small tribe) have returned to their native lands and do make some pretense of living a traditional, H/G lifestyle, even if they are not completely cut off from modern society. Do you have any evidence of this claim? The link you provided won’t let me through unless I let it rape my Google account and upload one of my own papers and grant the site total copyright over it. Needless to say, I ain’t doing that. All the pictures of these people show them wearing western clothes, living in brick houses and driving around in cars. A large proportion of them appear overweight. I can’t find any reliable evidence on Google that they are hunter gatherers, just throw away lines. In fact most of the Google returns come via the Pila Nguru Aboriginal Corporation. That corporation has a program “Training workers in nutrition and health foods” and “coordinating and organising bush trips with senior women to collect materials and plants for food, arts and crafts, and for making traditional medicines”. This sounds to me like every other remote Aboriginal community, with the associated. Most remote Aboriginal communities have some people who do a substantial amount of hunting, as did most remote American towns 100 years ago. That didn’t make the people of Little Rock hunter gatherers either. Most of these communities have major health issues associated with poor diet and nutrition due to most calories coming form store bought food. The local welfare services make an effort to get people more back to the land gathering food to try to overcome this. So, evidence that these people are hunter gatherers would be appreciated. And by evidence I don’t mean a throw away line in an arts book, I mean actual evidence that these people obtain their clothing, tools, shelter and majority of their calories for hunting and gathering. Because the photos seems to rather obviously show overweight people driving cars, wearing western clothes, living in brick houses and using axes and rifles. That makes me rather doubt that these people are obtaining most of their food from anywhere but a shop. I would also like to see evidence that these people pretend that they obtain most of their food, clothing and shelter from the bush. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606/80 "2016-02-09T22:12:29Z")
I’ll note I had already mentioned I was mostly just saying that there are essentially very few (if any) people left living a totally “pre-modern” lifestyle. I had thought a few small groups still existed without agriculture, which now seems in doubt, the Pirahã that had been described as not practicing farming in one missionary account I read (which focused on linguistics) were even described wearing modern clothing that they would acquire through trade. That being said–it looks like maybe some of the Andaman islands peoples who do not have regular contact with outsides (and have had some violent ones with modern people) have been claimed to practice no agriculture and even to lack the ability to make fire–I have no idea how true either of those claims are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-easily-could-people-start-a-fire-before-matches-and-lighters/607606.md?page=5)