# How effective are NATO anti-tank weapons in Ukraine right now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [March 5, 2022, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515 "2022-03-05T09:51:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/21 "2022-03-11T19:43:23Z")
Recent video suggests that the weapons are effective, particularly against a bunched up column: > **[Ukraine war: Drone footage shows Russian tank column retreat after artillery...](https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-drone-footage-shows-russian-tank-column-retreat-after-artillery-ambush-12562334)** > > The footage, taken from a Ukrainian drone, shows the Russian tank column thrown into disarray by the attack as artillery shells and rockets explode around them. Toss in some British understatement: > [@](#): > > A military expert, Air Marshal Philip Osborn, said the grouping of the vehicles suggests they did not anticipate an attack. > > “In regards to grouping, you would only group in that way if you felt relatively secure from attack,” he told Sky News. **“This video proves that was a misjudgement.”** ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/22 "2022-03-11T22:12:08Z")
That’s what D&D players call “fireball formation”. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/23 "2022-03-11T23:18:48Z")
How many men would have been in that Armoured Personnel Carrier that just got blown up? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/24 "2022-03-11T23:22:23Z")
It looked like a BTR (at least I assume it’s the one burning in the closeup you are asking about), so…3 crew and 6-8 troops potentially. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/25 "2022-03-11T23:25:18Z")
Right, my impression as well. > **[BTR-80](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTR-80)** > > The BTR-80 (Russian: бронетранспортёр, romanized: bronetransportyor, lit. 'armoured carrier') is an 8×8 wheeled amphibious armoured personnel carrier (APC) designed in the Soviet Union. It was adopted in 1985 and replaced the previous vehicles, the BTR-60 and BTR-70, in the Soviet Army. It was first deployed during the Soviet–Afghan War. > The BTR-80 was developed into the larger BTR-90. > The BTR-80 is based on the BTR-70 APC, which itself was based on the BTR-60. It has a single 260-hp V-8 turb... > [@](#): > > Crew > 3 (+7 passengers) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2022, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/26 "2022-03-12T00:30:38Z")
So we just saw about 10 people get killed by watching that video. Doesn’t matter who they are, that’s hard. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2022, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/27 "2022-03-12T02:08:37Z")
That was my thought too. War sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/28 "2022-03-14T14:28:24Z")
The blyat-slats haven’t done much protection good. NLAW and Javelin appear highly effective. Not sure how good RPGs and Panzerfaust-3s are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/29 "2022-03-15T01:20:13Z")
I would say that video shows horrifically bad tactics except I hesitate to call them tactics at all. From that and other similar videos it doesn’t seem like the Russians have battle drills or completely ignore them. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/30 "2022-03-15T01:22:26Z")
Query: If the Russians wanted to get that column of tanks to Kyiv, how would they do it, without going on the road like that? (I know nothing of military tactics.) ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/31 "2022-03-15T01:30:46Z")
That’s a question that should have a different answer for Russians. Because Russians should know not to attack during mud season (Rasputitsa). Generally you want tanks spread out in formation in open ground to be most effective. With infantry in mutually supportive positions and scouts/ cavalry to the front and flanks. Road travel in columns should be reserved for secure areas. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/32 "2022-03-15T04:57:37Z")
Of course, it was supposed to be over in a matter of days, so these sort of issues about tactics and proper approach would have been irrelevant, and probably not even discussed. Roll up, fire a few shells, and roll into town for the traditional “be greeted as liberators” event that we would recognize so well from Iraq. (And we and they from Afghanistan) ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/33 "2022-03-15T05:59:26Z")
Despite attacking a much larger force and hitting a hellacious sand storm in the middle of the invasion it was a very successful military operation. US and coalition forces did everything they needed to do while keeping their casualties low and capturing the Capitol in about 20 days. The fight in Ukraine is not going so well. Don’t confuse the invasion with the quagmire that happened after. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/34 "2022-03-15T06:13:55Z")
When I mention tactics I don’t mean an overall strategic plan. I mean from the videos I’ve seen the Russians seem to not have any squad or platoon level tactics. The US Army has battle drills . Small unit level tactics that are drilled into your head and practiced as a unit so when certain things happen you know how to react. While the soldiers are reacting the leaders only have to tweak the reaction based on the situation rather than try and communicate the plan on the fly. The applicable battle drills I’ve witnessed on video the Russians failing miserably are Battle Drill 1: React to Direct Fire Contact, Battle Drill 3: Break Contact, Battle Drill 4: React to Ambush, Battle Drill 9: React to Indirect Fire. Probably a couple others. I don’t expect the Russians to have the exact same tactics as the US but those are basic things that should be trained at the squad level. Their tactics when coming into contact seem to be a good old fashioned Holy Grail run away. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/35 "2022-03-15T13:15:46Z")
I expect at least part of that is that when US troops are advancing into battle, even if they don’t know exactly how the enemy are going to react, they at least do know that they’re advancing into battle. But reports are that the Russian troops didn’t even know that. They thought they were on training exercises. Were they supposedly training on how to move, or were they just going somewhere where they would get some sort of training when they got there? I suspect that they weren’t even told that. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/36 "2022-03-15T14:58:57Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Their tactics when coming into contact seem to be a good old fashioned Holy Grail run away. Thanks for the laugh - I needed that. Now I will imagine that Monty Python line in my head when I see one of these videos with the Russians in retreat. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/37 "2022-03-15T15:32:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I expect at least part of that is that when US troops are advancing into battle, even if they don’t know exactly how the enemy are going to react, they at least do know that they’re advancing into battle. But reports are that the Russian troops didn’t even know that. They thought they were on training exercises. Were they supposedly training on how to move, or were they just going somewhere where they would get some sort of training when they got there? I suspect that they weren’t even told that. The rap against Soviet doctrine at the time I was made to study it (back when there was a Soviet Union) was that small unit leaders were given no autonomy to adapt to unforeseen circumstances. They had to blindly follow the plan until someone back in Moscow changed it. They had conscripted forces and couldn’t trust their company grade officers and had no real professional NCO corps. This was mitigated by their numerical superiority and their reliance on chemical weapons in their doctrine. I’m no expert on current Russian doctrine but even if it’s just as top heavy as Soviet doctrine it’s insane to send troops into combat without telling them some sort of plan. They have to be told something at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/38 "2022-03-15T15:39:53Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > They have to be told something at some point. “Go forward until you win or you’re dead.” ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/39 "2022-03-15T16:41:14Z")
Even when Stalin had no problem sacrificing millions of soldiers for родина there were still plans. Even bad generals know there has to be more than go forward. There is a plan. There is doctrine. From what little has come out so far it doesn’t look like anything cohesive is being followed. On its most basic level you don’t attack from a column. The thunder runs during the Battle of Baghdad were a different animal. They were fast raids with clear objectives. Also done on routes where the weapons systems had fields of fire. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/40 "2022-03-15T16:48:35Z")
I think the ‘plan’, such as it was, really involved Russia invading and Ukraine immediately surrendering and seeking terms. It’s clear that politics were driving the military planning, which is why it seems the initial Russian invasion was trying to steer away from doing a lot of damage to Ukraine and Ukrainian infrastructure as well as civilian casualties. Russia wanted basically a painless invasion and conquest as well as a rapid capitulation. I mean, that’s kind of what happened in 2014, with the Ukrainian military just folding almost instantly. Putin obviously felt that this would happen again, and his political goals drove the military plans. It’s clear that the Russian military wasn’t prepared for any of this, that they hadn’t really trained for any of this or had all the pieces in place and on the same page to do any of this. As you said, this is insane…a total incoherent mess. Folks have been trying to parse what is really going on and why for 2 weeks now, and we still don’t know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515.md?page=3)