# How effective are NATO anti-tank weapons in Ukraine right now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [March 5, 2022, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515 "2022-03-05T09:51:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/61 "2022-03-16T12:23:21Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > well, the calculation is not quite so simple Exactly. My point was not to attempt to calculate anything specific. My point was only that comparing the cost of a Javelin to the cost of a tank is far too simplistic because it ignores the possibility they have different _value_. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/62 "2022-03-16T12:47:52Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > My point was not to attempt to calculate anything specific. My point was only that comparing the cost of a Javelin to the cost of a tank is far too simplistic because it ignores the possibility they have different _value_ Then I think we absolutely agree. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/63 "2022-03-16T13:55:30Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > Also, driving a tank is (I hope) not as simple as picking up a rifle and learning rudimentary marksmanship Of course, picking up a rifle and learning rudimentary marksmanship doesn’t make you an infantryman, just a guy with a rifle. Actual infantry training is pretty complex stuff. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/64 "2022-03-16T13:56:33Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Of course, picking up a rifle and learning rudimentary marksmanship doesn’t make you an infantryman, just a guy with a rifle. Actual infantry training is pretty complex stuff. You know what you call an untrained soldier? A civilian. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/65 "2022-03-16T13:58:46Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Decisions are made and delivered from on high, with very little lateral communication. This leads to a highly centralized system, with authority hardly ever delegated. Rarely does an officer make a critical decision on his own; instead, he prefers the safe course of being identified as industrious, intelligent, loyal—and compliant. Bringing attention to oneself as an innovator or someone prone to make unilateral decisions is a recipe for trouble. As in civilian life, conformism is the overwhelming societal norm; the nail that stands up gets hammered down. Orders and information flow from top to bottom; they are not to be reinterpreted, amended, or modified in any way. This pretty much sums up almost all armies prior to the twentieth century. Modern warfare is not amendable to this approach. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/66 "2022-03-16T14:07:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You know what you call an untrained soldier? > > A civilian. Well, yes and no. If they’re wearing an enemy uniform, you can shoot them even if they haven’t received any training. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/67 "2022-03-16T14:29:06Z")
Well, I wasn’t referring to the rules of war there. Marksmanship is not really one of the more important parts of making a soldier. Rifles are pretty easy to use, and unless you’re specifically talking about snipers, little of battle success is determined by small differences in marksmanship in modern war. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/68 "2022-03-16T14:32:35Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Once attended a ship casualty with Russian officers. The master was ex navy. He made a mistake that had the ultimate effect of grounding the ship. The third officer denied noticing the mistake but their expression when questioned and the surrounding circumstances were such that it was totally obvious they knew of the mistake well within time to have saved the situation. They just didn’t dare speak up to point out that their superior had erred. This used to be a problem with airlines in certain national cultures. The culture of deferring to superiors meant that captains wouldn’t heed their first officers or the FOs wouldn’t dare speak up when something was wrong, which led to deadly crashes. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/69 "2022-03-16T15:40:30Z")
[Moderating] > [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > Here’s hoping this movie ends the same way… This post was flagged as being too political for GQ. I’m going to rule here that opposition to Putin, and hope for his fall from power, is sufficiently uncontroversial, at least in the US, that this isn’t an issue. However… Am I correct in guessing that the movie Downfall ends with Hitler killing himself? Posting that “I hope so-and-so kills himself” is not acceptable on this board, not even if the so-and-so is Putin. If this is what was meant, don’t do that again. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/70 "2022-03-17T03:58:13Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > However, if that material is being replaced free gratis from willing allies and your knackered tank (plus, one assumes, the trained soldiers) is having to be re-manufactured, re-equipped and retrained on a longer timescale and financed by a falling currency in a market that doesn’t want to sell to you…well, the calculation is not quite so simple. I’m thinking the current strategy that Putin is falling back on is: Can’t beat the determination, organization, and equipment of the Ukrainian forces determined to defend their homeland. (Even if they have effective weapons thanks to the west) Don’t want to admit his vaunted armed forces lost to a nation 1/4 the size that did not have a superpower army or air force of its own. So bomb soft target civilian areas, do as much catastrophic destruction as possible, to provoke NATO into creating a no-fly zone. Then he can order the troops home, and tell his home audience - “We would have won, until the entire might of every country in Europe, and Turkey, and North America was arrayed against us.” It wasn’t that the Ukrainians will have defeated Russia, but that prudence dictated not taking on the whole of NATO. “Strategic withdrawal”. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/71 "2022-03-17T14:36:16Z")
One tactic that I’ve seen on several videos is, when coming under attack, the column immediately moves off the road and into the field, gully or whatever else is there. It appears that this often ends up with the vehicle bogged down very near the roadway. It seems a well-planned ambush would take this into account and pre-place mines, IEDs, long sections of that mine clearing explosive “rope” or whatever for a 1-2 punch. Of course, knowing what route the convoys will take and setting the trap without being caught would be problematic. I can’t imagine that this sort of thing isn’t being done in Kyiv where access routes for heavy vehicles are limited to roadways. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/72 "2022-03-17T14:46:45Z")
I would assume this is being done regularly by Ukrainian defenders. Setting up traps around kill zones is a pretty basic tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada\_Jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecc23a/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada\_Jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada_Jr)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/73 "2022-03-17T14:53:40Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > So bomb soft target civilian areas, do as much catastrophic destruction as possible, to provoke NATO into creating a no-fly zone. Then he can order the troops home, and tell his home audience - “We would have won, until the entire might of every country in Europe, and Turkey, and North America was arrayed against us.” It wasn’t that the Ukrainians will have defeated Russia, but that prudence dictated not taking on the whole of NATO. “Strategic withdrawal”. Putin’s other exit strategy at this point, of course, is to announce that Ukraine has been de-Nazified and that a Jew is now the President, declare victory, and go home, retaining control of the “breakaway” portions that he wanted in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/74 "2022-03-17T14:55:53Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > One tactic that I’ve seen on several videos is, when coming under attack, the column immediately moves off the road and into the field, gully or whatever else is there. It appears that this often ends up with the vehicle bogged down very near the roadway. It seems a well-planned ambush would take this into account and pre-place mines, IEDs, long sections of that mine clearing explosive “rope” or whatever for a 1-2 punch. Ukraine is a signatory to the Ottawa Treaty which prohibits the use of antipersonnel mines and required destruction of mine stockpiles except for retaining a small number for training purposes. While anti-vehicle mines are technically permitted I don’t know if countries that went ahead with getting rid of mines necessarily bothered to distinguish between them. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/75 "2022-03-17T15:04:47Z")
Question about ambushes: I’ve read that the way to counter an ambush is to go towards the ambush and attack it, rather than run away. But this seems like it would just make you an even easier target. You can’t spot and sort out in seconds where the ambushers are, whereas they have been sitting there a long time (perhaps well-concealed) and know exactly where the position of everything is. And by charging the ambushers, you’re making yourself a bigger target due to closer range, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/76 "2022-03-17T15:07:14Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@MikeF](#): > > > > One tactic that I’ve seen on several videos is, when coming under attack, the column immediately moves off the road and into the field, gully or whatever else is there. It appears that this often ends up with the vehicle bogged down very near the roadway. It seems a well-planned ambush would take this into account and pre-place mines, IEDs, long sections of that mine clearing explosive “rope” or whatever for a 1-2 punch. > > Ukraine is a signatory to the Ottawa Treaty which prohibits the use of antipersonnel mines and required destruction of mine stockpiles except for retaining a small number for training purposes. While anti-vehicle mines are technically permitted I don’t know if countries that went ahead with getting rid of mines necessarily bothered to distinguish between them. There was a video I saw recently of a Russian tank being destroyed by an anti tank mine. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/77 "2022-03-17T15:07:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Question about ambushes: I’ve read that the way to counter an ambush is to go towards the ambush and attack it, rather than run away. But this seems like it would just make you an even easier target. What would you prefer as the ambusher - that the ambushee runs to the other side of the road, or charges at you? You want the former, believe me. It gives you more time to shoot them in the back and you take less fire to start. As the ambushee, you don’t want to do what your enemy wants you to do, you want to give them not one millisecond longer to shoot you than possible. > [@Loach](#): > > There was a video I saw recently of a Russian tank being destroyed by an anti tank mine. I believe I saw that video. The caption said it was a mine, but it looked to me as if the tank had been hit with a missile; there was a distinctly visible flash to the viewer’s right (the tank’s left.) Not that it mattered to the guys in the tank. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/78 "2022-03-17T15:07:47Z")
I don’t think it’s ‘attack’ the ambushers so much as drop and return fire from the direction it’s coming. What happens after that depends. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/79 "2022-03-17T15:12:34Z")
Here is the video. It is certainly a mine. The explosion occurs when the front end comes down. It’s on the left side of the tank. The explosion comes from below and the road wheels of the tank get blown up and out. That doesn’t happen with a missile. Obviously this video contains war violence so don’t click if you don’t want to see. No people visible but the tank has a crew of three. > **[(NSFW) Russian T-72 Obliterated By Suspected Anti Tank Mine](https://funker530.com/video/nsfw-russian-t-72-obliterated-by-suspected-anti-tank-mine/)** > > Drone footage captures the moment a Russian T-72 tank is catastrophically destroyed by Ukraine's 25th Airborne Brigade. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2022, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515/80 "2022-03-17T15:20:50Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > I don’t think it’s ‘attack’ the ambushers so much as drop and return fire from the direction it’s coming. What happens after that depends. For infantry the basics of react to an ambush are if you are in the kill zone. Drop, return fire, throw grenade, assault through the ambush. Those outside of the kill zone provide covering fire. For tanks it’s front towards enemy, attack. The last thing you want to do is stay in the kill zone where the enemy has their fields of fire mapped out, indirect fire laid in, IEDs and mines. And you don’t want to run away and get picked off. The quickest way out of the kill zone is into the ambush. Give the enemy a shooting moving target that is coming to kill him instead of a stationary or moving away target. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-effective-are-nato-anti-tank-weapons-in-ukraine-right-now/960515.md?page=5)