# How egotistical must an entity be to need to be worshiped **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 10, 2019, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778 "2019-05-10T14:57:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/81 "2019-05-14T18:26:48Z")
Okay, but you’ll miss tea and cake. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/82 "2019-05-14T18:32:29Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > IMHO this has ceased to be a Great Debate and turned into another example of us talking past each other. I’ve said what I came here to say. Bye. Correct me if I’m wrong, but your statement about the subject of the thread was basically, “I dunno, I think maybe God doesn’t want to be worshiped at all.” Which is nice and all, but it’s hard _not_ to talk past a shrug. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/83 "2019-05-14T18:54:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I feel inspired to ponder different reasons a deity might want people to worship them. > > 1. They’re a narcissist. > > 2. They derive power from adulation, and/or their very survival depends on it. > > 3. People who worship them become compliant and can then be more easily used for nefarious purposes. (Slaves, people batteries, lunch, whatever.) > > 4. People benefit from the mere act of worshiping anything, and the god is a nice guy who wants people to benefit. (Note that if this is the case the god won’t care who or what you worship; they _definitely_ won’t tell you not to put other gods before them.) > > 5. They want to help humans in some way, but there’s some sort of arcane and extremely specific universal law that prevents them from helping humans that don’t worship them personally. This explanation only applies if the god didn’t set up the system and doesn’t have the power to change universal laws, of course. > Did I miss anything? What if people benefit from the mere act of worshiping God, due to some arcane and extremely specific universal law that only works when worshiping God specifically? And that such a system is set up for the express purpose of letting humans keep their free will? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/84 "2019-05-14T18:59:01Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > What if people benefit from the mere act of worshiping God, due to some arcane and extremely specific universal law that only works when worshiping God specifically? And that such a system is set up for the express purpose of letting humans keep their free will? > > ~Max That is certainly…an idea, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/85 "2019-05-14T19:08:19Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > What if people benefit from the mere act of worshiping God, due to some arcane and extremely specific universal law that only works when worshiping God specifically? And that such a system is set up for the express purpose of letting humans keep their free will? > > ~Max How would such a system help people keep their free will? Does getting God’s help rob people of their free will somehow? Note that if a person doesn’t have the ability to stop god from helping them that doesn’t reduce the person’s free will any more than it reduces your free will if you can’t stop me from slipping money into your pocket. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/86 "2019-05-14T20:25:53Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > How would such a system help people keep their free will? Does getting God’s help rob people of their free will somehow? Note that if a person doesn’t have the ability to stop god from helping them that doesn’t reduce the person’s free will any more than it reduces your free will if you can’t stop me from slipping money into your pocket. The goal of worshiping God is not to retain free will _per se_ but to better the human soul. Sure, God could swoop in and forcibly manipulate a human’s soul - but to do so destroys the human’s free will, and it must be asked if doing so in fact improves the soul at all. To use the father-son analogy, a father does not improve his son’s character by knocking out the child and, by the force of his own hands, making the child perform moral acts. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/87 "2019-05-14T20:37:03Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The goal of worshiping God is not to retain free will _per se_ but to better the human soul. Sure, God could swoop in and forcibly manipulate a human’s soul - but to do so destroys the human’s free will, and it must be asked if doing so in fact improves the soul at all. To use the father-son analogy, a father does not improve his son’s character by knocking out the child and, by the force of his own hands, making the child perform moral acts. How does constant veneration/worship of the father improve the soul of the son? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/88 "2019-05-14T20:54:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How does constant veneration/worship of the father improve the soul of the son? I can posit a mechanism. Maybe worshipping God on a regular basis keeps God (and his laws) in our consciousness so that our souls stay pure. Kind of like how regular exercise keeps our muscles toned and strong. Maybe without regular worship, it is easier to lose faith and succumb to temptations. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/89 "2019-05-14T20:57:33Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I can posit a mechanism. Maybe worshipping God on a regular basis keeps God (and his laws) in our consciousness so that our souls stay pure. Kind of like how regular exercise keeps our muscles toned and strong. Maybe without regular worship, it is easier to lose faith and succumb to temptations. Isn’t that akin to brainwashing? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/90 "2019-05-14T21:25:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Isn’t that akin to brainwashing? We have evidence for brains . . . souls, not so much. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/91 "2019-05-14T21:33:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Isn’t that akin to brainwashing? I always study when I have to take a test. I read over my lecture notes and work different problem sets until the material fully saturates my brain. I do this so that I’ll master the test. Or, at the very least, I won’t be intimidated by the test. If you think that’s brainwashing, OK. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/92 "2019-05-14T21:36:00Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Maybe without regular worship, it is easier to lose faith and succumb to temptations. Should be easy to test; compare the crime rates in countries that do a lot of worshipping against those that don’t. I wonder what the result might be. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/93 "2019-05-14T21:36:44Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I always study when I have to take a test. I read over my lecture notes and work different problem sets until the material fully saturates my brain. I do this so that I’ll master the test. Or, at the very least, I won’t be intimidated by the test. > > If you think that’s brainwashing, OK. I don’t think that is brainwashing. Are you saying that studying and worshiping are the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/94 "2019-05-14T21:44:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t think that is brainwashing. Are you saying that studying and worshiping are the same thing? I don’t think doing one thing (worship) to keep some other thing else (God and his laws) in ones consciousness is brainwashing. Just like I don’t think studying for a test is brainwashing or chanting affirmations is brainwashing. Are you honestly confused? Or are you just humoring yourself? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/95 "2019-05-14T22:15:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I can posit a mechanism. Maybe worshipping God on a regular basis keeps God (and his laws) in our consciousness so that our souls stay pure. Kind of like how regular exercise keeps our muscles toned and strong. Maybe without regular worship, it is easier to lose faith and succumb to temptations. Just keeping things straight, which of these scenarios are you positing: 1. Worshiping god acts as a summoning spell which brings God into your soul and allows him to bust out the dustbuster and windex and clean your soul out. 2. Worshiping god doesn’t mean _worshiping_ him, but instead _studying up on_ him, bringing thoughts about his existence and laws in your mind which then causes you to behave more nicely because you remember what the laws are and that he exists enough to disapprove of you breaking them. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/96 "2019-05-14T22:34:29Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Just keeping things straight, which of these scenarios are you positing: > > 1. Worshiping god acts as a summoning spell which brings God into your soul and allows him to bust out the dustbuster and windex and clean your soul out. I’m not saying this. > [@](#): > > 1. Worshiping god doesn’t mean _worshiping_ him, but instead _studying up on_ him, bringing thoughts about his existence and laws in your mind which then causes you to behave more nicely because you remember what the laws are and that he exists enough to disapprove of you breaking them. I’m not saying this either, at least not exactly. Worship is _akin_ to studying in that both activities keep information (whether that be God, his promises, his instructions, his love, his wonderful afterlife) in a person’s awareness. If you sing along to gospel music\* right before you go to bed, let’s say, then you will have God on your brain at a moment when your thoughts might otherwise turn dark (“There is no God”) or salacious (“Ooh, sexy times with myself!”) And thus you will be able to wake up the next day with a soul that’s heavenbound. Just like if you work calculus problems right before you go to bed, you will have conic functions on your brain when you wake up rather than the usual stupid programming, such as the theme song to Scooby Doo. You will be able to wake up with a mind that’s bound to master the big final exam. I’m not sure what ya’ll are specifically confused about, but I guess I’ll keep playing along. \*I personally recommend Aretha Franklin’s “Amazing Grace” album. It’s almost good enough to make a heathen like me backslide right back into Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/97 "2019-05-14T22:47:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How does constant veneration/worship of the father improve the soul of the son? I’m not a theologian and I am not a Catholic, but I have had the pleasure of speaking to a Catholic minister about this and will do my best to represent that faith. During a Catholic mass the worshiper ingests consecrated bread and wine, which has the effect of literally inviting Jesus into your soul. This is not based on scientific evidence, but on longstanding papal authority which in turn interprets the Eucharist as related by the Bible (Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-24; Luke 22:17-20; I Corinthians 11:23-25; John 6:47-67). Unfortunately for agnostics, the physical mechanism behind transubstantiation (if one exists) remains elusive. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/98 "2019-05-14T23:20:37Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m not saying this either, at least not exactly. > > Worship is _akin_ to studying in that both activities keep information (whether that be God, his promises, his instructions, his love, his wonderful afterlife) in a person’s awareness. If you sing along to gospel music\* right before you go to bed, let’s say, then you will have God on your brain at a moment when your thoughts might otherwise turn dark (“There is no God”) or salacious (“Ooh, sexy times with myself!”) And thus you will be able to wake up the next day with a soul that’s heavenbound. Just like if you work calculus problems right before you go to bed, you will have conic functions on your brain when you wake up rather than the usual stupid programming, such as the theme song to Scooby Doo. You will be able to wake up with a mind that’s bound to master the big final exam. So, if we’re presuming that God is the one mandating the worship, it’s actually more like “Hey all you guys, keep in mind that I’m going to mercilessly rip into you for all your unapproved actions and/or thoughts at some point, and if you keep the approved literature in your heads as much as possible it’s less likely that the thought police will drag you to barbecue town when the Great Grilling commences. Consider this advice/order a warning/order.”? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/99 "2019-05-14T23:36:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How does constant veneration/worship of the father improve the soul of the son? The rabbis I have listened to taught that any righteous act (_mitzvah_) is an act of worship, or _avodat hashem_. Prayers (_tefilah_) are a special kind of _mitzvah_, and the purpose of prayer like any other act of worship is to transform one’s self. Apparently there is some disagreement as to how this works. One conservative rabbi years ago explained prayers as a form of communication. Another rabbi explained that prayers literally shape the universe (this Jewish theology is known as _Kabalah_). What rabbis seem to agree on is that it is the _intent_ of the prayer that counts, not the specific sounds or words or tone. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778/100 "2019-05-15T00:37:53Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I feel inspired to ponder different reasons a deity might want people to worship them. > > 1. They’re a narcissist. I’m not sure what “narcissism” would mean when applied to a deity, at least a Supreme Being like the God of Jews, Christians, or Muslims. That he “thinks he’s God”? Well, duh: He is. That he has an exaggerated sense of self-importance? But he _is_ important. Narcissism is a disorder in human beings because, hey, you’re not the only person in this world. Why should you think you’re more special than anybody else? But God _is_ more special than anybody else. That he has an excessive need for admiration? Now we’re sort of begging the question: _Why_ does he want/need people to worship him? > [@](#): > > 1. They derive power from adulation, and/or their very survival depends on it. > > 2. People who worship them become compliant and can then be more easily used for nefarious purposes. (Slaves, people batteries, lunch, whatever.) This may work for gods in polytheistic or henotheistic settings, but it doesn’t make sense for the Almighty as conceived of by most monotheists, who doesn’t have such limitations. > [@](#): > > 1. People benefit from the mere act of worshiping anything, and the god is a nice guy who wants people to benefit. (Note that if this is the case the god won’t care who or what you worship; they _definitely_ won’t tell you not to put other gods before them.) 1. Sort of the opposite of this: God knows that people have a built-in tendency to worship _something_, and so he wants them to worship him rather than something more dangerous like a human being, an institution (like the State), or the Almighty Dollar. > [@](#): > > 1. They want to help humans in some way, but there’s some sort of arcane and extremely specific universal law that prevents them from helping humans that don’t worship them personally. This explanation only applies if the god didn’t set up the system and doesn’t have the power to change universal laws, of course. > Did I miss anything? Probably several other possibilities, such as my #6 above, or my suggestion earlier in the thread that maybe worship makes God “feel good” or get something analogous to emotional pleasure from it. But maybe all of these suggested reasons are too _transactional_. They’re all based on the supposition that God derives some benefit as a result of being worshiped, or that the worshipers do. But maybe that’s the wrong way to look at it, or at least not the full picture. Maybe worship is an end in itself, rather than a means to an end. Maybe worship (whether by humans or by angels) happens because it’s somehow right or fitting or aesthetically pleasing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-egotistical-must-an-entity-be-to-need-to-be-worshiped/833778.md?page=6)