# How embarassing! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 27, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136 "2006-03-27T19:27:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/21 "2006-03-28T05:56:14Z")
Anyone else a little unsettled by _House of Flying Daggers_ (aka _Shi mian mai fu_), the Chinese historical epic/martial arts film that came out in 2004? A really good movie but the ultimate point of the plot was that individuals should sacrifice themselves for the sake of the government because the rulers know better than the subjects. Obviously not a message you’re going to see in many western movies. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/22 "2006-03-28T09:00:05Z")
> [@Ghanima](#): > > _Breakfast at Tiffany’s_ explores unconventional roles for both of the main characters (he’s a gigolo and she’s a wink-wink-nudge-nudge-not-quite-prostitute). No argument about the Rooney character in the movie, but are you sure about these two points concerning the narrator and Holly Golightly? I find no evidence in either the book or the movie (although I know the book better) that the narrator is in any sense a ‘gigolo’. He is only identified as a writer, and a very kind and decent man who happened to be mesmerised by Holly. As for Holly, she knew she was attractive and didn’t mind exploiting this to manipulate men a little… but a prostitute, or a near-prostitute? Maybe I need to re-read the book or watch the movie again. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/23 "2006-03-28T11:58:13Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Really? Could you give a cite? I’ve read the first three or four original Tarzan novels and never noticed any particular bias against black Africans, if that’s what you mean. I’ve only read _Tarzan of the Apes_, but for me it was the way Tarzan’s search for his identity is set up. First he lives among the apes but doesn’t fit in. Eventually his innate superiority lets him triumph, but as he grows in power he recognizes that the apes are not his equals. When he finds the Africans, he is excited at first but disappointed later. They still aren’t what he is looking for. He terrorizes them a little to prove his superiority but it doesn’t really lead anywhere. Then, finally, real people arrive. To me, this progression clearly places the Africans somewhere in the middle of a continuum from ape to white man. ---
**Author:** ![singular1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba9def/32.png) [@singular1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/singular1)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/24 "2006-03-28T12:18:46Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > No argument about the Rooney character in the movie, but are you sure about these two points concerning the narrator and Holly Golightly? I find no evidence in either the book or the movie (although I know the book better) that the narrator is in any sense a ‘gigolo’. He is only identified as a writer, and a very kind and decent man who happened to be mesmerised by Holly. As for Holly, she knew she was attractive and didn’t mind exploiting this to manipulate men a little… but a prostitute, or a near-prostitute? Maybe I need to re-read the book or watch the movie again. Yeah, you need to see the movie again (it’s been so long since I read the book I can’t be sure, but I’ve seen the movie recently). Patricia Neal is quite blatently supporting Peppard for his services, and Holly’s story of $50 “tips” for the washroom attendant, as well as her visits to the “client” in jail, barely need a wink to clearly explain how these people make a living. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/25 "2006-03-28T12:35:58Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Anyone else a little unsettled by _House of Flying Daggers_ (aka _Shi mian mai fu_), the Chinese historical epic/martial arts film that came out in 2004? A really good movie but the ultimate point of the plot was that individuals should sacrifice themselves for the sake of the government because the rulers know better than the subjects. Obviously not a message you’re going to see in many western movies. _Hero_ is another example of this, and if anything made an even stronger point. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/26 "2006-03-28T14:50:06Z")
> [@kellner](#): > > I’ve only read _Tarzan of the Apes_, but for me it was the way Tarzan’s search for his identity is set up. First he lives among the apes but doesn’t fit in. Eventually his innate superiority lets him triumph, but as he grows in power he recognizes that the apes are not his equals. When he finds the Africans, he is excited at first but disappointed later. They still aren’t what he is looking for. He terrorizes them a little to prove his superiority but it doesn’t really lead anywhere. Then, finally, real people arrive. To me, this progression clearly places the Africans somewhere in the middle of a continuum from ape to white man. Agreed, except I didn’t see it in terms of race but of civilization, with Tarzan sort of recapitulating the development of society from prehistoric times. FWIW, Burroughs’ main racism isn’t to think of non-whites as inferior so much as he regards the British peerage practically as a master race, which is understandable for his time and place. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/27 "2006-03-29T07:04:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Hero is another example of this, and if anything made an even stronger point. Yes, _Hero_ was much better example of what I was saying. So much so, that it, and _House of Flying Daggers_, was the movie I was meant to post about. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/28 "2006-03-29T07:13:50Z")
Sigh. That was supposed to be “and not _House of Flying Daggers_”. And “I meant” not “I was meant”. And “was a much better example” not “was much better example”. To recap: _Hero_ was the movie I originally meant to refer to. _House of Flying Daggers_ is not. English, despite all the evidence presented here, is my native language. I’m feeling more in sync with the thread title with every post I make. I’m going to go to bed now. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/29 "2006-03-29T07:29:43Z")
The _Thousand and One Nights_ is all written at the height of non-PC. Rape, murder, and theft are your friends! Women are property! Slaves should behave! Animals should be beaten! Yay! I ended up only reading about a quarter of it, but found it interesting that In the story of Aladin, the princess never existed. The bad guy (Jafar?) used a spell to transform himself into looking like a princess, and then sleeping with Aladin so that he would make the genie make things for him. Which seems not to have made its way into the Disney version. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/30 "2006-03-29T07:40:35Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > No argument about the Rooney character in the movie, but are you sure about these two points concerning the narrator and Holly Golightly? I find no evidence in either the book or the movie (although I know the book better) that the narrator is in any sense a ‘gigolo’. He is only identified as a writer, and a very kind and decent man who happened to be mesmerised by Holly. As for Holly, she knew she was attractive and didn’t mind exploiting this to manipulate men a little… but a prostitute, or a near-prostitute? Maybe I need to re-read the book or watch the movie again. Yep, Capote pretty much said she was. He wanted Marilyn Monroe to play Holly. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/31 "2006-03-29T14:17:55Z")
Most Classical literature (except for philosophy) is based on the unquestioned assumptions that might makes right, and the most glorious thing a man can do with his life is win wealth and fame by making war. In the _Odyssey,_ shipwrecked Odysseus makes it very clear to the king of the Phaeacians that he is not some ignoble merchant, but a bold and hearty pirate, who raids coastal towns, slaughters the men and carries off the women. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/32 "2006-03-29T14:56:11Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > No hatred for **James Thurber**? I loved his stories when I read them in my teens, but re-reading them later I was astounded at the undercurrent of misogyny and/or racism in virtually every one. My affection for old Jim is too great to ever _hate_ him, but you’re absolutely right – he reflected in an unusually strong light the misogyny and racism of his times, the early-to-mid-20th century, and his people, white Midwesterners and New Englanders. Part of that was just his outspokenness – he was a curmudgeon, and increasingly in later years, a crank. Part of it was surely his upbringing as a bright, visually impaired boy in the Victorian Midwest, in a family where the women were as strong, as indomitable, and often as crazy as the men. (See his memoir, _My Life and Hard Times._) I think Thurber badly wanted out of that box, and into another – the tougher, more securely male world represented by newspaper work. His first city editor in Columbus was a man he frankly idolized because of the man’s bullying personality toward women and (like Thurber) college graduates – a sure sign he felt “unmanly” and in need of a correcting influence. ---
**Author:** ![HeadNinja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b4bc9f/32.png) [@HeadNinja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeadNinja)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/33 "2006-03-29T15:56:01Z")
To take the thread in a slightly different direction, consider “The Fountain”. Did it change the art world? Yep. Is it Art? Opinions vary. Is it a urinal? Yes. It’s a special urinal, a urinal with a unique history, a urinal that inspires lively debate. But at the end of the day it is something into which you Pee. Or on days you aren’t especially proud of, into which you hurl. Or Lolita. A critic’s favorite. Just typing its name is guaranteed to get a whole new set of google ads. But at its core it is a book about an old guy diddling a little girl. Well written diddling, but dialing all the same. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/34 "2006-03-29T16:05:38Z")
> [@Ferret Herder](#): > > _Hero_ is another example of this, and if anything made an even stronger point. Wow – I didn’t get that from Hero at all. If anything it seemed to me to say that the good of the people, ALL of the people regardless of which kingdom they are from, takes precedence over loyalty to a government. Jet Li’s character proves this point by betraying his own government. He realizes that there is only one leader strong enough to conquer outright and end the suffering of the common man. To achieve this end he ignores his sworn duty to his government (to assassinate the rival emperor) knowing this will eventually result in it’s destruction. He’s essentially saying that the good of the people outweighs the right of government to exist. The only reason he sacrificed himself was so that one true leader could unite China for the good of all it’s people. But then again I might just be an optimist. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/35 "2006-03-30T22:34:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, he is. Kipling is not only reviled now, he was reviled while he yet lived. And yet, at the same time(s), revered. Read this essay by George Orwell: ["Rudyard Kipling" \< George Orwell \<4umi word](http://4umi.com/orwell/kipling.htm) Kim is possibly my all time favorite book & i’ve read it dozens of times. i just don’t see the smoking racist gun. his writings often feature racists, and characters definately have racist/colonial attitudes. but writing about racists is definately not the same as being a racist proponent. in fact, much of his writing is extremely acerbic and moking of the colonialists and their attitudes & lifestyles. IIRC, first story in plain tales from the hills features a hillwoman adopted and raised by english missionaries. she is also featured as the ‘woman of shamliegh’ in kim. read that story and tell me who come off as racist & morally bankrupt? guttenburg project has most if not all of his works if you want to judge for yourself. (Kim has the Lama speaking Chinese, which is factually incorrect and I wonder how kipling made such an ergarious mistake? makes me cringe every time.) ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/36 "2006-03-30T22:53:29Z")
Richard Wagner was extremely anti-semitic, and some scholars claim that it is evident in his operas. But this not a widely held belief about the composer. Nonetheless, his work was apporpriated by the Nazis and so for many there is an extreme negative connection of his work,whether inteded by him or not. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/37 "2006-03-30T23:28:48Z")
Ian Fleming’s James Bond novels drip with both misogyny and racism. The treatment of women is pretty obvious; the villains, without exception, are almost always racially mixed (the one exception if Mr Big who is, I think, “pure race” black.) ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/38 "2006-03-30T23:38:53Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Wow – I didn’t get that from Hero at all. > > \ > > But then again I might just be an optimist. 😃 I mostly agree. Hero has a utilitarian message not a totalitarian message. Geatest good for the greatest number. But Zoid, are you sure Jet Li’s character was working on behalf of a rival kingdom? I only saw it once when it came out but I seem to recall Jet Li’s character was essentially fighting for revenge at that point for a kingdom already defeated. It was only after actually meeting the conqueror and learning that the man was honorable and wanted peace did Jet Li’s character abandon the assassination. Jet Li’s acceptance that he has to die himself has shades of “I am Legend” which I always enjoyed. From what I understand there’s a bit of a mistranslation in the movie as well… the symbol at the end means “Under Heaven” and not “One Land”. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/39 "2006-03-31T00:06:28Z")
> [@Push You Down](#): > > From what I understand there’s a bit of a mistranslation in the movie as well… the symbol at the end means “Under Heaven” and not “One Land”. :eek: Why on earth did they change that? I mean, it is a central part of the movie and the original is a moderately famous phrase. That seems like a pretty significant change without any apparent reason. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136/40 "2006-03-31T06:24:07Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > I ended up only reading about a quarter of it, but found it interesting that In the story of Aladin, the princess never existed. The bad guy (Jafar?) used a spell to transform himself into looking like a princess, and then sleeping with Aladin so that he would make the genie make things for him. Which seems not to have made its way into the Disney version. For _real_? :eek: All the versions I’ve ever read include a real princess somewhere, but that is just… wow. Dude. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-embarassing/350136.md?page=3)