# How evil is this idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 4, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215 "2012-07-04T14:21:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/21 "2012-07-04T21:58:05Z")
At the San Diego Zoo, they feed live [anoles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychrotidae)to the birds in the australasian aviaries. Some of the lucky ones escape and you can see them occasionally scurrying around in the landscaping. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/22 "2012-07-04T22:00:31Z")
It’s arguably illegal in the UK to put a live vertebrate in an enviroment where it can be reasonably be expected to be killed. The law is incredibly vaguely worded, but it’s generally interpreted as that. That said, most large carnivores will happily kill their own food, despite having been born in captivity. A lot of big cat enclosures are just a fence, open topped, and a few big cat keepers have told me they often find a big pile of feathers that wasn’t there last night when they come in in the morning… Of course, some are much better at catching stuff than others, and a few downright clumsy animals do survive in captivity that would clearly have starved in the wild, but it’s far from a rare event for a zoo animal to acquire its own lunch. I’ve even known only vaguely carnivorous animals like marmosets, many generation zoo bred, to grab a bird from flight and eat it. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/23 "2012-07-04T23:12:21Z")
> **[Deer in lions' den is fatally injured as crowd watches](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/08/AR2009110817703.html)** > > A deer that jumped a wall at the National Zoo was fatally injured by two lions Sunday as dozens of startled spectators looked on. This is about a deer that won a Darwin Award by jumping into a lion’s area at the zoo. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/24 "2012-07-05T00:17:13Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > While looking at the price of cat toys, my wife and I remarked that it would be cheaper, and more entertaining for the cats, if we were to buy live mice and set them loose in the house. > It’s not something we’d do, of course. Not only is there the risk of the damned things getting loose and setting up house in our walls or somewhere beyond the reach of cats, but it’s inherently cruel. I don’t have a problem with raising and feeding live mealworms or brine shrimp to animals as food, but using live mammals kicks it up a notch – I believe that the “pinkies” (mouse babies) they sell as food for snakes, owls, and the like are all dead. Mice generally can’t get out of a bathtub. [never actually bought a mouse for our cat, though we have also joked about it as a christmas present, but we trained Banzai to take his catch and eat it in the tub because I got tired of the wet little crunch-squish of stepping on a ‘present’ getting out of bed to pee in the middle of the night. Or rolling over and realize I am nose to nose with a ‘present’ on my pillow. > [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > In safari parks where the animals live in large enclosures of natural vegetaion I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the predators don’t get the chance to use their instincts on small mammals and birds now and then. There was a youtube going around a few months back of a large bird [crane?] coming in for a landing in a tiger cage. It didn’t last long.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Arrendajo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Arrendajo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arrendajo)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/25 "2012-07-05T00:58:57Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > There was a youtube going around a few months back of a large bird [crane?] coming in for a landing in a tiger cage. It didn’t last long.😃 right [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvxjgUKabW8). ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/26 "2012-07-05T01:27:37Z")
> [@Arrendajo](#): > > right [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvxjgUKabW8). Not a tiger in sight, but a few lions. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/27 "2012-07-05T02:02:16Z")
> [@CatherineZeta](#): > > Some animals can’t figure it out. When my parents first got our turtle about 25 years ago they put fish in his tank for him to chase and eat and he wasn’t able to. I tried that with him again a few years ago when we pet sat another turtle who liked to eat fish and I could see that my turtle is very clumsy and has poor timing. He’d starve if it weren’t for turtle chow. I once had a 5" turtle in an aquarium. I was told to feed it live goldfish, which I bought at a local pet shop. But the turtle would, at best, get a piece of fin or tail, or even bite off the front of a fish’s face. The poor fish would suffer for a while, swimming erratically, until the turtle either was able to catch it or lost interest. For the most part, I had to debilitate the fish by harpooning them with an x-acto knife, and had to constantly remove dead remains that weren’t eaten. I hated having to do this, and got rid of the turtle. I imagine this sort of problem would be true of zoo animals as well. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/28 "2012-07-05T03:26:28Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Not a tiger in sight, but a few lions. Well, a large cat =) She didn’t seem to have trouble going after that interesting looking bird! ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/29 "2012-07-05T13:36:28Z")
> [@Alpha\_Twit](#): > > As part of the diet of some of the large carnivores, the zookeepers would place already dead but whole creatures (usually rabbits) into the trays for the animals to consume. One of my friends commented that once in a while (maybe once a year) the keepers should toss in a couple of _live_ rabbits into the enclosure and let predator and prey fulfill their natural functions. The lions would like it and I doubt it would take even the most cage bound and domesticated tiger very long to figure out what this wiggly and yummy smelling thing is for. It’s easy to make more rabbits and while they may not be in favor of the plan I’m more concerned for the big cats. > > I can imagine the ASPCA would raise up a fecal-storm of complaints and lawsuits. > > It’s probably not the best thing to do in front of the kiddies but I guess that if I heard my local zoo instituted this practice then I wouldn’t object. Would you? Would you object to the use of larger prey animals, like cows? [Feeding time at the Harbin Zoo in China.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHmcsJ0DaOk&feature=player_detailpage#t=21s) [another one.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ist8N1Q_uxY&feature=player_detailpage#t=27s) ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/30 "2012-07-05T19:11:35Z")
Our fisher cats get a live fish every week. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/31 "2012-07-05T19:17:28Z")
It doesn’t peg my evil meter, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Alpha\_Twit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alpha_twit/32/265_2.png) [@Alpha\_Twit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alpha_Twit)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/32 "2012-07-05T22:29:01Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Would you object to the use of larger prey animals, like cows? > > [Feeding time at the Harbin Zoo in China.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHmcsJ0DaOk&feature=player_detailpage#t=21s) > > [another one.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ist8N1Q_uxY&feature=player_detailpage#t=27s) I have three distinct objections to the acts shown on the linked videos. A] - My entire thought behind suggesting this idea is that it might make life for the zoo bound carnivores a little better by offering them an occasional interesting treat. Turning it into a public spectacle to excite tourists is unnecessary at best and probably counter-productive. B] - I’m not sure how long it took those tigers to dispatch the cow but it took a few minutes I’m sure for it to bleed out. A tiger, one-on-one with a rabbit should be able to dispatch it in seconds generating less suffering for the sacrificial offering. C] - Cows are tastier than rabbits. I like tigers and other big cats but give the beef to me. ---
**Author:** ![Braydon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58f4c7/32.png) [@Braydon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Braydon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/33 "2012-07-06T06:44:57Z")
“Nature is red in tooth and claw.” of course, Isn’t there any legislation about it? Actually, I want to get my pdf copy. There must a complete set of instructions for it. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/34 "2012-07-06T12:56:58Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > It doesn’t peg my evil meter, actually. Is _anybody_ surprised by this? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/35 "2012-07-06T13:17:41Z")
Meh. I know a few snake owners who feed live prey, mostly rats/mice but also rabbits. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/36 "2012-07-06T19:22:57Z")
> [@Alpha\_Twit](#): > > A] - My entire thought behind suggesting this idea is that it might make life for the zoo bound carnivores a little better by offering them an occasional interesting treat. Turning it into a public spectacle to excite tourists is unnecessary at best and probably counter-productive. Well, dropping a live cow in amonst the tigers certainly makes their lives more interesting. If you think letting the public see what top-level carnivores actually do to prey animals is counterproductive, then the feeding could certainly be done out of view of zoo visitors. However, I htink that maybe letting zoo visitors see the gruesome spectacle of big cats tearing apart a not-quite-dead prey animal would help squelch some people’s romantic notions of the “beauty” of nature. Maybe then they can make more fully informed decisions when it comes to supporting conservation efforts. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure how long it took those tigers to dispatch the cow but it took a few minutes I’m sure for it to bleed out. I think the typical manner of death for a big cat dispatching a large ungulate is suffocation: they grab them by the throat and clamp down. For a demonstration of a big cat taking down a much smaller animal, look upthread for **Arrendajo** ’s link to a video of some lions catching a wild heron that landed in their enclosure. The bird’s death is not particularly swift, tidy, or cruelty-free. Expect something similar if rabbits are offered: lots of chasing, chewing, batting around, and suffering before the rabbit finally succumbs. > [@](#): > > C] - Cows are tastier than rabbits. I like tigers and other big cats but give the beef to me. Don’t worry, there’s plenty go go around. You’ve just got to get in there and take your share. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Braydon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58f4c7/32.png) [@Braydon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Braydon)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/37 "2012-07-07T10:41:13Z")
> [@Braydon](#): > > “Nature is red in tooth and claw.” of course, > Isn’t there any legislation about it? Actually, I want to get my pdf copy. There must > a complete set of instructions for it. [pomeranian diet](http://pommymommy.jimdo.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/38 "2012-07-07T12:43:31Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > It’s arguably illegal in the UK to put a live vertebrate in an enviroment where it can be reasonably be expected to be killed. The law is incredibly vaguely worded, but it’s generally interpreted as that. This seems to make it clear that you’d need a very good reason to do it in the UK. Page 48 (section 8.2.11) of a [large pdf](http://www.biaza.org.uk/uploads/D15_SecState_Standards_Zoos.pdf) called **Secretary of State’s Standards of Modern Zoo Practice** , issued March 2000 > [@](#): > > Live feeding of vertebrate prey is to be discouraged (see Standard 6). Where it has to be undertaken, feeding must be observed and live prey not left in the enclosure. It may not be strictly illegal, but I don’t think any zoo would want the hassle of justifying it to their licensing body. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/39 "2012-07-07T13:03:14Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > – I believe that the “pinkies” (mouse babies) they sell as food for snakes, owls, and the like are all dead. snip. Actually you can get any size or type of rodent live, or frozen thaw. Most zoos with large reptile collections maintain their own rodent farm for this purpose. Young, sick, or finicky animals will often only take live prey items. Likewise there are certain species that rarely are able to be transitioned to frozen thaw, (like calabar burrowing pythons) and simply do better on a diet of live. ---
**Author:** ![brainstall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@brainstall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brainstall)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215/40 "2012-07-07T13:23:38Z")
Dumping a confused and baffled young cow into a tiger pen doesn’t seem very sporting. For enrichment, lure coursing cheetah’s seems a bit more fun and humane for all parties involved. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/GHdfrjlJxpc/hqdefault.jpg "Lure coursing cheetahs with Wicked Coursing and the Cincinnati Zoo's Cat Ambassador Team") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHdfrjlJxpc) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-evil-is-this-idea/627215.md?page=1)