# How, exactly, should we enforce immigration laws? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439 "2010-06-01T00:08:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/21 "2010-06-01T20:24:01Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’m not sure what kind of “residency information” you would expect an employer to collect. Perhaps the same sort of documentation that a suspected illegal immigrant is supposed to produce to the police in Arizona, or even to an agent of the Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services. And if U.S. citizens have a problem proving their status, perhaps that’s part of the illegal immigration problem. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/22 "2010-06-01T20:25:52Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Plus what about sub-contractors? All you need is 1 shady criminal type to set up “Al’s Discount Migrant Labor, Inc” and rake in a bunch of money for doing nothing. He gets caught, you probably bankrupt him but unless you’re going to enforce some draconian punishments he’s not gonna do more than a couple years in jail, and that’s totally worth the risk when there are hundreds of similar operations. > [@steronz](#): > > The only solution is E-Verify or something like it, but even that doesn’t get around the sub-contractor issue. I had considered the possibility of subcontracting- or, more likely, employers shifting employees to independent contractor status- but didn’t think it would come up. The solution there is pretty obvious - employers should be held accountable for subcontracted labor. [QUOTE=Hampshire] Stiff fines for providing services to illegal immigrants like health services. [/QUOTE] I am _not_ on board with this. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/23 "2010-06-01T20:33:47Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > It seems to be the “my hands are clean” non-solution to the problem. At least in the other examples you gave, the police work in conjunction with the private sector. What non-solution? If businesses can no longer routinely hire illegal workers as standard practice (not counting the occasional person who slips in with forged identification), the number of jobs available to these workers are going to be drastically reduced. Fewer jobs for illegal immigrants = fewer illegal immigrants. They’re not coming here just to annoy you, you know. > [@](#): > > It would be like punishing the employer for not submitting a W-4 in a timely fashion, but letting a tax cheating employee slide without an investigation. If tax evasion were rampant and that were the most effective way to reduce it, then it would be the right approach. As long as the jobs are there, people will come here to do them. Do you get that? They’re not bad people – any of us would do the exact same thing in their place. Imagine employers in Toronto routinely paid $500,000 a year no questions asked – you don’t think every single person in Detroit wouldn’t try to get there and do those jobs? You think you could stop people from going there by deporting or fining the 0.01% you caught? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/24 "2010-06-01T21:44:57Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Because the government is currently run by lefties, and lefties tend to think emotionally, not logically. Whether the above is true or not, one has to ask if it is _ever_ right to look at these issue emotionally. Insomuch as we are supposed to compassionate, emotional animals, I’d say it is. Sometimes rules need to be bent. Take [this case](http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-05-29/bay-area/21649706_1_deported-marriage-visa-russia) for example and let’s assume for the sake of argument the facts are as presented in that article. Now I’m willing to be hard-hearted enough to say the mother here appears to have fucked up and the emotional toll of being seperated from her daughters notwithstanding, maybe she needs to pay the price for that. But a 16-year old kid being deported through zero fault of his own to a country where he doesn’t even speak the language? That’s someone for whom the concept of bending the rules was invented. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/25 "2010-06-01T21:46:12Z")
The key is employment. There must be _rigorous_ enforcement in this area, or we may as well throw in the towel, IMO. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Of course, we’d need some sort of exemption for “occasional” domestic work. I don’t particularly want to be fined if it turns out the guy mowing my lawn is an undocumented worker from Guatemala. And no exemptions. If you need to hire someone to mow your lawn (or clean your house, or nanny your kids, etc.), you should be subject to the _exact_ same stipulations and penalties as any other employer. (This assumes these are walk-up hirings, not employees of a lawn or house service, etc.–if the latter, you’re just a customer, not an employer.) We should be hiring Americans (or legal immigrants on a citizenship track, or visitors on temporary work visas), and thus we _should_paying more for “occasional domestic work,” just as we _should_ be paying more for construction and agricultural work, etc. The simple way to make this practical, for all categories of employers, is for each state to issue a document which confirms the legal right to work in that state. This would be granted automatically to citizen-residents upon their attaining the legal age of employment in that state; non-citizens and non-residents would have to apply. This could be combined with a drivers license, with an alternate form for those who are not licensed drivers. Put the real burden of confirmation on the states, not private companies or individuals. All the employer needs to do is check that each hire has a work card. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/26 "2010-06-01T21:47:58Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Come on, now. Do you really think if she had said something like “My mom takes money from men to let them play with my private parts” that the local police would say something like you just did? Or would they investigate it thoroughly? Are you really equating child prostitution with visa violations & defying immigration quotas? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/27 "2010-06-01T21:53:19Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > 1. What about sub-contracting and private day labor? > > 2. Let’s say I want to rent my house, and Juan Carlos Guiterrez comes and says he wants to rent from me. What must I, as a private citizen, do to keep from going to jail? In Missouri & Oklahoma, if you rent to him you are a felon now. > [@](#): > > 1. You are going to tell a man that’s bleeding to death in the ER lobby just to go ahead and die? Sure they are. Human life is clearly not a concern or we wouldn’t have these border rules. The visa-less die all the time trying to get to the US in the Caribbean, to Mayotte (part of France & thus Europe) in the Indian Ocean, trying to cross the Mediterranean, in the backs of trucks or the holds of ships coming into First World countries. If illegal immigrants aren’t dying trying to get into your country, the thinking goes, you’re not really First World. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/28 "2010-06-01T22:05:15Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > The simple way to make this practical, for all categories of employers, is for each state to issue a document which confirms the legal right to work in that state. This would be granted automatically to citizen-residents upon their attaining the legal age of employment in that state; **non-citizens and non-residents would have to apply.** This could be combined with a drivers license, with an alternate form for those who are not licensed drivers. Put the real burden of confirmation on the states, not private companies or individuals. All the employer needs to do is check that each hire has a work card. In fact, non-citizens are easy (or should be easy): if they are legally able to work in the U.S., they have federal documentation saying so; if they are legally resident in the U.S., they have federal documentation for that; and if they are legally just visiting, they have federal documentation for that too. (It will generally be a green card, a visa, or a visa waiver, the latter two being combined with a foreign passport.) (And I know it’s not easy in practice, because the feds can be years or even decades behind in processing the paperwork – that’s part of the problem – but documenting non-citizens really is a job for the feds that the states cannot realistically do.) ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/29 "2010-06-01T22:49:32Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Put the real burden of confirmation on the states, not private companies or individuals. All the employer needs to do is check that each hire has a work card. It can’t be that simple, not in a world where a fake driver’s license runs you $50 and can be had on any college campus. Assuming by “work card” you meant something similar. On top of that, I’m a legal resident of Ohio working for a company in Virginia. So now employers need to be adept at spotting fake work cards from all 50 states. You’re still back to requiring some method for “phoning home” to a master database of all eligible workers. Jose presents his “work card,” you swipe it and your computer system hits the federal e-verify database and lets you know if he’s a legit worker. Now implement this for 200+ million people, somehow sidestepping the privacy concerns associated with what amounts to a federal ID card and database system, and require employers to check not just their own employees but also to check all their sub-contractors and their sub’s subs and their sub’s sub’s subs, all the way down the line. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/30 "2010-06-01T22:53:22Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > and require employers to check not just their own employees but also to check all their sub-contractors and their sub’s subs and their sub’s sub’s subs, all the way down the line. I don’t see why this would be necessary. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/31 "2010-06-01T22:56:09Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I don’t see why this would be necessary. Per **Really Not All That Bright** ’s “obvious” solution to the problem of subcontractors: [QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] The solution there is pretty obvious - employers should be held accountable for subcontracted labor [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/32 "2010-06-01T23:03:14Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Per **Really Not All That Bright** ’s “obvious” solution to the problem of subcontractors: Ah. Myself I’m not convinced that the subcontractor problem is actually a problem - presumably for _any_ of this to be enforced there would have to be some system of inspecting businesses for compliance, and subcontractors would be just as subject to this system as anyone. Possibly moreso, if they become well-known in the industry as a source of cheap laborors who just happen to have spanish as a first language. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/33 "2010-06-01T23:23:55Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > It can’t be that simple, not in a world where a fake driver’s license runs you $50 and can be had on any college campus. Assuming by “work card” you meant something similar. > > On top of that, I’m a legal resident of Ohio working for a company in Virginia. So now employers need to be adept at spotting fake work cards from all 50 states. Well, obviously it would have to be a better technology–much harder to counterfeit–than some DLs are now. And no, employers would only have to recognize cards from the states where they actually work–for most employers, this would be just one. If you’re an Ohio resident, you would have to apply to Virginia for a Virginia work card before working here. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/34 "2010-06-01T23:36:07Z")
So, super-technology ID cards, a national employment database (a la e-verify), roving enforcement teams, complicated cross-state employment guidelines… at best you’re all describing an overly complicated system which will be a huge hassle to legitimate employers, and nobody’s yet to convince me that it will solve the “problem.” And we’re right back to the OP – these countermeasures are costly and possibly futile. So why are we going down this road again? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/35 "2010-06-01T23:50:25Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > So, super-technology ID cards, a national employment database (a la e-verify), roving enforcement teams, complicated cross-state employment guidelines… at best you’re all describing an overly complicated system which will be a huge hassle to legitimate employers, and nobody’s yet to convince me that it will solve the “problem.” And we’re right back to the OP – these countermeasures are costly and possibly futile. So why are we going down this road again? The technology necessary isn’t any harder than anything presently in use for things like credit cards, currency, and the better drivers’ licenses–probably some combination of features from these systems. Such a system would be much _simpler_ for employers than the present one. Costly and futile–that’s what we’re doing now. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/36 "2010-06-01T23:51:42Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > So, super-technology ID cards, a national employment database (a la e-verify), roving enforcement teams, complicated cross-state employment guidelines… at best you’re all describing an overly complicated system which will be a huge hassle to legitimate employers, and nobody’s yet to convince me that it will solve the “problem.” And we’re right back to the OP – these countermeasures are costly and possibly futile. So why are we going down this road again? If you’re trying to establish some sort of equivalence, you run into the problem that even if it is _exactly_ as invasive to hunt the employers as it is to hunt the border jumpers, the employers have the distinction of being fewer in number, and relatively stationary. Therefore it’s is clearly both cheaper, easier, and less invasive en total to target them, regardless of whichever other equivalences may or may not exist. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/37 "2010-06-01T23:56:12Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If you’re trying to establish some sort of equivalence, you run into the problem that even if it is _exactly_ as invasive to hunt the employers as it is to hunt the border jumpers, the employers have the distinction of being fewer in number, and relatively stationary. Therefore it’s is clearly both cheaper, easier, and less invasive en total to target them, regardless of whichever other equivalences may or may not exist. There are 27 million businesses in the US, that’s gotta be way more than the number of working illegal aliens, plus now you’re leaving out all the non-working immigrants like pregnant women who cross the border to use our hospitals. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/38 "2010-06-01T23:57:47Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > The technology necessary isn’t any harder than anything presently in use for things like credit cards, currency, and the better drivers’ licenses–probably some combination of features from these systems. > > Such a system would be much _simpler_ for employers than the present one. > > Costly and futile–that’s what we’re doing now. Credit cards amount to a 2-3% tax on all of our purchases to pay for the cost of running the credit card network and business overhead. If that’s the comparison… ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/39 "2010-06-01T23:58:34Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > There are 27 million businesses in the US, that’s gotta be way more than the number of working illegal aliens But not more than the number of _potential_ illegal aliens. > [@steronz](#): > > , plus now you’re leaving out all the non-working immigrants like pregnant women who cross the border to use our hospitals. That’s right, I am. One problem at a time - starting with the one that we know is huge. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/40 "2010-06-02T00:03:40Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If you’re trying to establish some sort of equivalence, you run into the problem that even if it is _exactly_ as invasive to hunt the employers as it is to hunt the border jumpers, the employers have the distinction of being fewer in number, and relatively stationary. Therefore it’s is clearly both cheaper, easier, and less invasive en total to target them, regardless of whichever other equivalences may or may not exist. yep. not to mention that the employers have far, far more to stand to lose (if we’re in some high-fine, jailable offense land) if we make them the subject of enforcement, so it would be far more effective to shift the burden on them. but, everyone knows that we don’t want to enforce the immigration laws. hell, you even have posters wishing for draconian penalties but an exemption for themselves if they want to get their lawn cut on the cheap. :rolleyes: the way this stuff gets solved is how it has been solved in the past: you tolerate it until a certain point because you like the effects it generates, then you wring your hands about it and get all indignant, and then wind up liberalizing the immigration regime to wipe the slate clean, rinse and repeat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439.md?page=3)