# How, exactly, should we enforce immigration laws? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439 "2010-06-01T00:08:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/41 "2010-06-02T00:05:44Z")
oh, by the way: to people that really dig the “sooper dooper advanced ID/work permit” method… do you think that Europe (where constant possession of an ID card is mandatory) does not suffer from large illegal immigration problems? (especially controlling for the fact that there’s a large body of water and small land passages separating the haves from the have nots) ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/42 "2010-06-02T00:12:01Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > There are 27 million businesses in the US, that’s gotta be way more than the number of working illegal aliens, plus now you’re leaving out all the non-working immigrants like pregnant women who cross the border to use our hospitals. no where near 100% of those 27 million businesses are in a position to hire unskilled laborers. businesses being well documented and very static is the stronger point, anyways. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/43 "2010-06-02T00:44:35Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > There are 27 million businesses in the US, that’s gotta be way more than the number of working illegal aliens, plus now you’re leaving out all the non-working immigrants like pregnant women who cross the border to use our hospitals. Why would any woman from Mexico or Canada cross the border just to give birth in a US hospital if she didn’t intend to live or work in the US? Mexico & Canada both have publicly subsidized medicine, you know. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/44 "2010-06-02T01:19:42Z")
To get their children instant citizenship? I’m not sure how often it happens, I’m just repeating a common anecdote cited by the anti-immigration crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/45 "2010-06-02T01:21:33Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > It can’t be that simple, not in a world where a fake driver’s license runs you $50 and can be had on any college campus. Assuming by “work card” you meant something similar. By this logic, we should just give up on identification completely, given how easy it is to simply swing by the local college and pick up a driver’s license which is indistinguishable from a real one for only $50. Banks, airports, traffic cops are wasting their time asking for our licenses – anyone could be anyone! If high quality fake IDs are really as ubiquitous and cheap as you claim, why don’t you go ahead and get yourself one, say under the name Bill Johnson, and test it by opening up a bank account with it. If you succeed, I’ll reimburse you the $50 and throw in another $50 for your trouble. > [@](#): > > On top of that, I’m a legal resident of Ohio working for a company in Virginia. So now employers need to be adept at spotting fake work cards from all 50 states. > > You’re still back to requiring some method for “phoning home” to a master database of all eligible workers. Jose presents his “work card,” you swipe it and your computer system hits the federal e-verify database and lets you know if he’s a legit worker. Now implement this for 200+ million people, somehow sidestepping the privacy concerns associated with what amounts to a federal ID card and database system, and require employers to check not just their own employees but also to check all their sub-contractors and their sub’s subs and their sub’s sub’s subs, all the way down the line. Basically, your argument seems to be that it’s impossibly complicated to put a system in place whereby someone’s work eligibility can be checked. I agree that it’s somewhat complicated, and IMO more effort than it’s worth (I don’t think illegal immigration is actually a high priority problem). But if you’re also arguing that it is a serious problem, but one which should be handled primarily on the worker side, well, that’s just crazy. In that case, please explain how those $500k/year jobs in Toronto could ever remain unfilled simply by patrolling the border and shaking down anyone who looks like they’re from Michigan. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/46 "2010-06-02T01:36:04Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > By this logic, we should just give up on identification completely, given how easy it is to simply swing by the local college and pick up a driver’s license which is indistinguishable from a real one for only $50. Banks, airports, traffic cops are wasting their time asking for our licenses – anyone could be anyone! > > If high quality fake IDs are really as ubiquitous and cheap as you claim, why don’t you go ahead and get yourself one, say under the name Bill Johnson, and test it by opening up a bank account with it. If you succeed, I’ll reimburse you the $50 and throw in another $50 for your trouble. If a $50 fake canadian drivers license opened me up to a world of $500k a year jobs in Canada, umm… yeah, I’d get one. I knew people in college who had them just to drink in bars, and that’s like, no incentive whatsoever compared to $500k a year. > [@Giraffe](#): > > Basically, your argument seems to be that it’s impossibly complicated to put a system in place whereby someone’s work eligibility can be checked. I agree that it’s somewhat complicated, and IMO more effort than it’s worth (I don’t think illegal immigration is actually a high priority problem). But if you’re also arguing that it is a serious problem, but one which should be handled primarily on the worker side, well, that’s just crazy. In that case, please explain how those $500k/year jobs in Toronto could ever remain unfilled simply by patrolling the border and shaking down anyone who looks like they’re from Michigan. Putting a system in place would be relatively easy, but closing all the loopholes to a degree that would actually put a real dent in the number of illegal aliens working the US won’t ever happen. It will cost a lot and have a minimal effect. Will it be a better strategy than throwing money at border guards and fences? Possibly. Probably. But our current strategy is absolutely worthless, and slightly better than worthless doesn’t mean much. I put illegal immigration enforcement of all stripes in the same category as prohibition or the war on drugs. No matter what we try, it will end up costing a lot of money, causing a lot of strife, and not actually doing much towards solving the problem it aims to solve. I remain entirely unconvinced that cracking down on employers or stopping random people in Arizona will be notably better than big fences. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/47 "2010-06-02T01:39:19Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I put illegal immigration enforcement of all stripes in the same category as prohibition or the war on drugs. No matter what we try, it will end up costing a lot of money, causing a lot of strife, and not actually doing much towards solving the problem it aims to solve. I remain entirely unconvinced that cracking down on employers or stopping random people in Arizona will be notably better than big fences. Fair enough – I can’t really argue with that. I think targeting employers is 100x more effective than targeting workers, but 100x a tiny number is still a pretty small number. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/48 "2010-06-02T02:32:09Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > For the first thing, I’m just saying that if you’re an illegal alien and you memorize a “fake” SSN, you can bounce from employer to employer every 6 months, submitting new W-4s at every job and waiting for the IRS to catch up and let your employer know that you’re not using a legitimate SSN. The employer is therefore off the hook and the employee gets to keep working indefinitely, pretty much. > > … > > The only solution is E-Verify or something like it, but even that doesn’t get around the sub-contractor issue. It’s even easier. From what I hear, the employee provides a “fake” SSN obtained from a list, gives it to the employer, employer gives it to the IRS, IRS kicks it back as not good, employer tells the employee the SSN was not valid and needs a new SSN…rinse and repeat. Nobody in that loop cares; you assume to much. Everyone is better off with the wink and nod approach. (Employee gets wage, Employer gets profit, IRS gets taxes from profitable business). I’m an not familiar with E-Verify, but it sounds like it would cure the situation I described pretty easily. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/49 "2010-06-02T02:36:08Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > but, everyone knows that we don’t want to enforce the immigration laws. hell, you even have posters wishing for draconian penalties but an exemption for themselves if they want to get their lawn cut on the cheap. :rolleyes: How the hell do you expect private citizens to verify the bona fides of independent contractors? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/50 "2010-06-02T05:17:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > How the hell do you expect private citizens to verify the bona fides of independent contractors? :rolleyes: legit business operations would probably cost more than what you’re looking to spend by “accidentally” paying an illegal to do the work. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/51 "2010-06-02T08:32:22Z")
Is it really that big a deal? If Americans just gave up enforcing these laws, except to deport people who commit non-immigration-related crimes, what’s the worst that could happen? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/52 "2010-06-02T12:45:53Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Are you really equating child prostitution with visa violations & defying immigration quotas? :rolleyes: Absolutely not. I was merely responding to the argument upthread that we don’t conduct investigations based on the word of a young child. Of course we do. This child reported a felony being committed to the First Lady of the United States. On national television. And we don’t want to enforce the law. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/53 "2010-06-02T13:05:41Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > legit business operations would probably cost more than what you’re looking to spend by “accidentally” paying an illegal to do the work. So… your method for determining whether a business is legitimate is how much they charge? Brilliant plan. [QUOTE=jtgain] This child reported a felony being committed to the First Lady of the United States. On national television. And we don’t want to enforce the law. [/QUOTE] No she didn’t. Being in the United States illegally isn’t a crime. It’s a civil infraction. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/54 "2010-06-02T14:05:36Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > legit business operations would probably cost more than what you’re looking to spend by “accidentally” paying an illegal to do the work. Why would you think that? If we’re talking about situations like landscaping or roofing, it’s not that they’re paying the illegals less. It’s that they’re paying cash, for back-breaking manual labour. Illegal immigration works because there are so many jobs that pay cash. You talk about drying up the well, but you’re not, you’re poisoning your own well. These threads are always funny to watch because other than a handful of immigration lawyers, no American understands the immigration process–and why would they. I know plenty about the US system, and nothing about the Canadian system. I’ve also had the opportunity to meet, work with, and know a lot of illegal immigrants. A few of them were from Mexico, but a few from Canada, Europe, one from the Ukraine. None of them would provide “suspicion” to check their papers. The process you guys are describing is hilarious. It is literally as effective as saying something stupid like, “let’s solve the drug problem by making employers require drug testing.” Seriously, if you don’t understand the problem, you can’t possibly come up with a solution to it. Couple of points to make: most of the tourists in the US (and Arizona) don’t have visas, at most they might have a stamp in their passports. Until recently Canadians only needed a driver’s license to enter the country. Most of the illegals eventually get fake IDs and SSN, this isn’t to suggest we do away with identification, it’s to point out the fact that if you are using ID as a means to find illegals it’s going to fail. Instead it’s going to catch citizens that forgot their wallets. What you have here is a very lengthy discussion about how to plug a leak in an oil well. When the real problem is the need for oil. Try addressing the real issues, going after a company when there is a leak is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/55 "2010-06-02T14:11:29Z")
I’m all for holding employers accountable… assuming there is a reasonable method in place to determine if an employee has the right to work. I trust that all of those who would throw the book at the employer would also be willing to provide an equivalent punishment (if not worse) to an illegal who tries to induce an employer to hire him. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/56 "2010-06-02T14:23:47Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > I’m all for holding employers accountable… assuming there is a reasonable method in place to determine if an employee has the right to work. > > I trust that all of those who would throw the book at the employer would also be willing to provide an equivalent punishment (if not worse) to an illegal who tries to induce an employer to hire him. I was thinking that too. Reminds me of the case where a guy gets busted fucking a 16 year old, and when charged says, “But she had ID that said she was 18.” And let’s not forget, this is going to mean a MASSIVE hassle for ALL of the legitimate employees. Everyone in the US now gets to spend an extra day with their HR rep. And every business large and small needs to have an HR rep to deal with all this. What do you suppose their due diligence is? To what lengths must they go to “prove a negative?” (ie to prove the someone isn’t an illegal). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/57 "2010-06-02T14:34:02Z")
They don’t have to prove a negative. They have to prove that the employee has the right to live and work in the United States. That doesn’t make any sense at all, in fact; there is documentation which creates the presumption that one is a legal resident (green card, passport, naturalization certificate, birth certificate, etc.), but no documentation that creates the presumption that one is _not_ legally entitled to work here. ETA: Maybe a deportation order or something. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/58 "2010-06-02T16:27:55Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Why would you think that? > > If we’re talking about situations like landscaping or roofing, it’s not that they’re paying the illegals less. It’s that they’re paying cash, for back-breaking manual labour. Illegal immigration works because there are so many jobs that pay cash. You talk about drying up the well, but you’re not, you’re poisoning your own well. Hiring a business to do it is different than paying some random Joe off the street to cut your lawn for significantly less than what the business would be charging you for, which is what we’re discussing. > [@](#): > > The process you guys are describing is hilarious. It is literally as effective as saying something stupid like, “let’s solve the drug problem by making employers require drug testing.” > > Seriously, if you don’t understand the problem, you can’t possibly come up with a solution to it. Seriously, if you can’t understand how to analogize properly, you can’t possibly make good arguments. (in case that wasn’t obvious, employers don’t consume illegal drugs, so setting your sights on employers to fix the drug problem isn’t a very good argument. employers do, however, consume illegal labor. a better analogy would be… wait for it… “let’s solve the drug problem by making users criminally liable” which is what we do, as well as chasing after the suppliers. which is what posters are proposing be done vis-a-vis illegal immigration in that you both attack the supply and demand side of the issue) ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/59 "2010-06-02T16:31:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So… your method for determining whether a business is legitimate is how much they charge? Brilliant plan. implicit in my point is that you won’t accidentally hire a business owned and operated by an illegal. but you will hire one individual to do the work who could very well be an illegal, and my guess is that the only way he’s able to generate his business is by offering substantially lower prices. otherwise, you’re never going to hire an illegal to do the work - you’ll be hiring a business to do it, and in that case the problem of the legality of their employers is off your back. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439/60 "2010-06-02T16:33:33Z")
To a private citizen, what is the difference between an illegal alien operating a lawn service as an independent contractor, and a business? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-exactly-should-we-enforce-immigration-laws/541439.md?page=4)