# How facts backfire. Is fighting ignorance just a lost cause? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208 "2010-09-01T00:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/41 "2010-09-01T15:33:14Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Thus it comes as no surprise to hear people such as yourself and certain others of a leftward political bent want to do away with it in favor of a more dictatorial or authoritarian type of government which will force people to live according to your wishes rather than their own. I’ve said no such thing. Please stop putting words in my mouth. Did you read the article, SA? Even “elites” suffer from the same problem. > [@Boston Globe](#): > > A 2006 study by Charles Taber and Milton Lodge at Stony Brook University showed that politically sophisticated thinkers were even less open to new information than less sophisticated types. These people may be factually right about 90 percent of things, but their confidence makes it nearly impossible to correct the 10 percent on which they’re totally wrong. Taber and Lodge found this alarming, because engaged, sophisticated thinkers are “the very folks on whom democratic theory relies most heavily.” ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/42 "2010-09-01T15:44:42Z")
Stubborn political partisans have the same cognitive defects as hardcore sports fans. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/43 "2010-09-01T15:53:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > I also became sort of depressed when I read that article. But then I realized I don’t give a shit what other people do and went on with my life. > > This sounds cool, but what other people do can have a huge impact on your life. I’m starting to wonder about that. I become an adult around 1980. Looking back at my life since then, would I have done anything different, would my life had changed at all, if different people had been in high office during that time? I suspect not. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/44 "2010-09-01T15:54:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s not just stupid people. > > It’s been said that new scientific theories don’t gain acceptance by convincing those who currently believe in the old theories that the new theories are correct. They gain acceptance when the believers in the old theories die out and when the younger generation that looks at the evidence without preconceived ideas finds the new theory more compelling. > > And that’s how it is with other issues as well. You are not going to convince many Democrats to become Republicans or vice versa (for example). But you might make a compelling case to people who haven’t yet decided whether they should become Democrats or Republicans, and that’s your only hope. This is particularly prominent in the research community. It starts with a professor that _believes_ A causes D so he sets out to prove it. He builds a research department, gets some grad students, write a lot of papers, and becomes known for his ground breaking work in A causes D. Eventually one of his grad students starts to question the original work and asks, “why if instead B causes D?” Well, B can’t cause D because that would mean everything the professor has worked on for the past 30 years has been wrong. His life’s work pointless. How is he supposed to continue to get grants and go to conferences if A doesn’t cause D. So the professor has to dig in his heals, and justify his existence. At this point it has nothing to with A or B, it has to do with him and his ego. Now there are two competing theories, A causes D and B causes D. Nothing either group does will disprove the other. What’s funny is that people on the outside love to use this as a wedge. You’ll see it with global warming, evolution, and Keynesian economics. Also, consider this from the point of view of a religious conservative. They’ve built their life around the belief that the Earth is flat and the sun goes around it. That a magical figure in the sky created everything. That pi equals 3. Along comes some punk that tries to prove it otherwise. To accept that calls into question everything you believed to be true. At this point you can either pack up and quit, or set about discrediting/killing the heretics. It also helps to call them heretics. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/45 "2010-09-01T16:12:05Z")
I don’t find the article anywhere near as depressing as this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/46 "2010-09-01T16:19:52Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > We have a situation now where government is taking over more and more of our businesses, our income, our health care and general welfare, and how much of someone else’s money we get. Eventually we’ll find our individual freedoms subsumed to those dictated by a government whose functionaries think like **Blalron** and **Commissar** and others who think they know better than the average man what is best for him and/or what he should receive and how he should live. > > _Power To The People! Vote Republican!!!_ > > ~ Che Artist And have **corporations** taking over more and more of our rights, our income, our health care and general welfare, and how much money we get. Eventually we’ll find our individual freedoms subsumed to those dictated by corporations whose functionaries care not one iota for the average man, what is best for him and/or what he should receive and how he should live. Your way presupposes the same future, just with overlords we can’t vote out of office. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/47 "2010-09-01T16:28:39Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > It seems like that was always the case, people have defined their life on certain principals, if you show one is in error, then it must be enough to change their entire world view for them to consider that ‘fact’. Also mankind has a history of declaring facts only to retract them, so the track record is basally zero. > > To me however facts are not truths, just man’s latest attempt to justify error. Case in point. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/48 "2010-09-01T16:30:51Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > > > We have a situation now where government is taking over more and more of our businesses, our income, our health care and general welfare, and how much of someone else’s money we get. Eventually we’ll find our individual freedoms subsumed to those dictated by a government whose functionaries think like **Blalron** and **Commissar** and others who think they know better than the average man what is best for him and/or what he should receive and how he should live. > > > > _Power To The People! Vote Republican!!!_ > > > > ~ Che Artist > > And have **corporations** taking over more and more of our rights, our income, our health care and general welfare, and how much money we get. Eventually we’ll find our individual freedoms subsumed to those dictated by corporations whose functionaries care not one iota for the average man, what is best for him and/or what he should receive and how he should live. > > Your way presupposes the same future, just with overlords we can’t vote out of office. Sure you can. Just get as many people as you can, to buy up as many shares as you can, then vote at the next share holders meeting. I saw an article on CNBC about a fund that would do this with companies they thought were good but had shitty CEOs and as a result a low stock price. They’d buy as many shares as they could. Then go around talking to other major share holders. Eventually they’d vote the loser out on his ass, and rake in the profits. Brilliant. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/49 "2010-09-01T16:31:44Z")
> [@ch4rl3s](#): > > [QUOTE=Half Man Half Wit] > I think deeply held beliefs, as opposed to be the foundations of a worldview, are more accurately described as the foundations of one’s identity I like your description. [/QUOTE] Thanks! Seems that makes one. 🙂 Anyway, I think it’s a useful description: it helps keep in mind that even if your opponent isn’t swayed by all the facts and reason you can muster, he may not be an idiot (a lesson I sometimes find myself needing to be reminded of…); and if you think that, you’re maybe just working with the wrong categories. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/50 "2010-09-01T16:36:07Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > This is particularly prominent in the research community. It starts with a professor that _believes_ A causes D so he sets out to prove it. He builds a research department, gets some grad students, write a lot of papers, and becomes known for his ground breaking work in A causes D. > > Eventually one of his grad students starts to question the original work and asks, “why if instead B causes D?” > > Well, B can’t cause D because that would mean everything the professor has worked on for the past 30 years has been wrong. His life’s work pointless. How is he supposed to continue to get grants and go to conferences if A doesn’t cause D. > > So the professor has to dig in his heals, and justify his existence. At this point it has nothing to with A or B, it has to do with him and his ego. Now there are two competing theories, A causes D and B causes D. Nothing either group does will disprove the other. > > What’s funny is that people on the outside love to use this as a wedge. You’ll see it with global warming, evolution, and Keynesian economics. This is why I distrust and largely despise think tanks. They operate under the guise of scientific neutrality, but they all have their own agendas. For example, the Cato Institute: > [@](#): > > The Cato Institute is a public policy research organization — a think tank — dedicated to the principles of individual liberty, limited government, free markets and peace. Its scholars and analysts conduct independent, nonpartisan research on a wide range of policy issues. [http://www.cato.org/about/](http://www.cato.org/about/) They may claim to be “independent” and “nonpartisan,” but they’re still conducting their research through the lens of promoting “individual liberty, limited government, (and) free markets.” This colors anything they do because they’re seeking a particular result that supports the conclusion that they’ve started with. > [@Sailboat](#): > > Your way presupposes the same future, just with overlords we can’t vote out of office. Some people just can’t accept that private actors and organizations can be more oppressive or inefficient than government actors. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/51 "2010-09-01T16:38:35Z")
It is near impossible to change someones mind when they think their livelihood is in jeopardy. People working for oil companies will not accept their industry is dirty and must be cleaned up, if they think it might cost them their job. That is regardless of whether you understand cleaning it up is beneficial to the country as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/52 "2010-09-01T16:46:25Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > It is near impossible to change someones mind when they think their livelihood is in jeopardy. People working for oil companies will not accept their industry is dirty and must be cleaned up, if they think it might cost them their job. That is regardless of whether you understand cleaning it up is beneficial to the country as a whole. … [QUOTE=Upton Sinclair] It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/53 "2010-09-01T16:59:58Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > > [@Commissar](#): > > > > It seems to me that this research provides yet further proof that representative democracy is an irrational, primitive approach to governance. If the vast majority of humanity succumbs to ignorance and lies without a fight, does this not mean that it should not be given a say in the political process? > > You’re absolutely right. I volunteer to be your dictator. Well, let’s start with small steps, and the see what happens. No need to use an extreme position as a starting point. Here’s my proposal: all adults take an IQ test. Only those scoring in the top 25% get to vote or run for office. Easy, cheap, and you still get to continue playing at democracy - just with smarter people. What do you think, friends? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/54 "2010-09-01T17:29:16Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > > [@Deeg](#): > > > > You’re absolutely right. I volunteer to be your dictator. > > Well, let’s start with small steps, and the see what happens. No need to use an extreme position as a starting point. > > Here’s my proposal: all adults take an IQ test. Only those scoring in the top 25% get to vote or run for office. Easy, cheap, and you still get to continue playing at democracy - just with smarter people. What do you think, friends? Why reinvent the wheel. Here’s the [1965 Alabama voter literacy test](http://www.civicallyspeaking.org/literacy.pdf). How about both \*\*Deeg \*\*and **Commissar** , take the test (no cheating!) and tell us your scores. Then we’ll decide whether you’re qualified to vote, much less be our dictator. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/55 "2010-09-01T18:26:45Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Here’s my proposal: all adults take an IQ test. Only those scoring in the top 25% get to vote or run for office. Easy, cheap, and you still get to continue playing at democracy - just with smarter people. What do you think, friends? Cool. I’ll come up with test questions and have us take it. Good luck! ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/56 "2010-09-01T19:35:11Z")
I’m familiar with the study mentioned in the OP, and like **Blaron** , I was pretty depressed about it. Still, there are some thing s we can do about it, and the authors of the study offer one suggestion: > [@](#): > > Nyhan ultimately recommends a supply-side approach. Instead of focusing on citizens and consumers of misinformation, he suggests looking at the sources. If you increase the “reputational costs” of peddling bad info, he suggests, you might discourage people from doing it so often. “So if you go on ‘Meet the Press’ and you get hammered for saying something misleading,” he says, “you’d think twice before you go and do it again.” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/57 "2010-09-01T19:55:09Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Some people just can’t accept that private actors and organizations can be more oppressive or inefficient than government actors. Sure, they _can_ be, but they usually aren’t. And when they are, they don’t tend to last long. When’s the last time you heard of an oppressive or inefficient government department or agency going down the tubes? This is one of the big reasons why letting government have too much control is dangerous: once established, it’s pretty much there for keeps. And from there, it invariably grows larger. In fact, one could say, without much fear of contradiction, that the government’s primary role is to expand itself, as it has virtually nonstop over the last hundred, and most especially the last fifty, years. And once some new government agency or department has been established, the likelihood of it’s ever going away (or even staying at its original size) is so small as to be virtually nonexistent. We have much, much, more to fear in terms of oppressiveness and inefficiency from government agencies and departments which we can never get rid of than we do from any business, which ultimately depends upon serving its customer base at an at least satisfactory rate while simultaneously adapting itself to cope with new technological advancements and efforts by its competitors to provide a better service or product, more easily, and at a better price. It isn’t easy to be in business and it’s even harder to remain there. Govenment has no such concerns. It only has to make sure it spends all its current budget in order to get more and grow further next year, and neither the marketplace nor technological advancements threaten it in the slightest. Life is easy when you don’t have to worry about making a profit in order to survive, and easier still when you have no competition. Government is a 500,000,000 lb. gorilla that, once it finds a place to sit and make itself comfortable, ain’t goin’ nowhere. It’s a constant amazement to me that so many people want not only to see it grow further but to entrust their fate into its capricious and unanswerable hands. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/58 "2010-09-01T20:44:38Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > > > Some people just can’t accept that private actors and organizations can be more oppressive or inefficient than government actors. > > Sure, they _can_ be, but they usually aren’t. And when they are, they don’t tend to last long. When’s the last time you heard of an oppressive or inefficient government department or agency going down the tubes? > > This is one of the big reasons why letting government have too much control is dangerous: once established, it’s pretty much there for keeps. And from there, it invariably grows larger. In fact, one could say, without much fear of contradiction, that the government’s primary role is to expand itself, as it has virtually nonstop over the last hundred, and most especially the last fifty, years. And once some new government agency or department has been established, the likelihood of it’s ever going away (or even staying at its original size) is so small as to be virtually nonexistent. > > We have much, much, more to fear in terms of oppressiveness and inefficiency from government agencies and departments which we can never get rid of than we do from any business, which ultimately depends upon serving its customer base at an at least satisfactory rate while simultaneously adapting itself to cope with new technological advancements and efforts by its competitors to provide a better service or product, more easily, and at a better price. It isn’t easy to be in business and it’s even harder to remain there. > > Govenment has no such concerns. It only has to make sure it spends all its current budget in order to get more and grow further next year, and neither the marketplace nor technological advancements threaten it in the slightest. Life is easy when you don’t have to worry about making a profit in order to survive, and easier still when you have no competition. > > Government is a 500,000,000 lb. gorilla that, once it finds a place to sit and make itself comfortable, ain’t goin’ nowhere. It’s a constant amazement to me that so many people want not only to see it grow further but to entrust their fate into its capricious and unanswerable hands. And no amount of facts will ever change your mind on that. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/59 "2010-09-01T21:53:21Z")
“Here’s my proposal: all adults take an IQ test. Only those scoring in the top 25% get to vote or run for office. Easy, cheap, and you still get to continue playing at democracy - just with smarter people. What do you think, friends?” Exactly how do you propose to convince the other 75% of the population to agree with implementing this? And thats assuming all of the top 25% is entirely bereft of morals as well. Otara ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/60 "2010-09-01T21:59:58Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Then, before too long, you’ll begin writing the Manifesto and lovingly crafting the bombs. Wow, this was posted yesterday before [this news story](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/01/AR2010090104795.html) hit. Seems we have in this country a new bomb-maker who’s written a manifesto. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208.md?page=4)