# How facts backfire. Is fighting ignorance just a lost cause? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208 "2010-09-01T00:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/61 "2010-09-02T01:54:24Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > > [@Commissar](#): > > > > Well, let’s start with small steps, and the see what happens. No need to use an extreme position as a starting point. > > > > Here’s my proposal: all adults take an IQ test. Only those scoring in the top 25% get to vote or run for office. Easy, cheap, and you still get to continue playing at democracy - just with smarter people. What do you think, friends? > > Why reinvent the wheel. Here’s the [1965 Alabama voter literacy test](http://www.civicallyspeaking.org/literacy.pdf). How about both \*\*Deeg \*\*and **Commissar** , take the test (no cheating!) and tell us your scores. Then we’ll decide whether you’re qualified to vote, much less be our dictator. You’re ignoring the context and missing the point, my friend. The linked “test” was a typical example of a mechanism intended to screen out black voters, and was eventually struck down as unconstitutional. It represented a discriminatory purpose, rather than an effective way of screening potential voters. My proposed test is nothing of the sort. It is exactly what it seems to be: an intelligence threshold that will determine whether or not a person is qualified to vote in an intelligent manner. Nothing more, nothing less. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/62 "2010-09-02T01:59:02Z")
And the fact that this would substantially bias the voting pool racially is just bad luck. Good luck with that. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/63 "2010-09-02T01:59:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > enjoying the irony of an unrepentant Communist posting to a thread about how partisans don’t learn. > > Regards, > Shodan I certainly hope you weren’t referring to me as an unrepentant Communist… ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/64 "2010-09-02T02:05:47Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > Exactly how do you propose to convince the other 75% of the population to agree with implementing this? And thats assuming all of the top 25% is entirely bereft of morals as well. The bottom 75% don’t need to be “convinced” of anything - just go ahead and make the change via constitutional amendment. The people will go along with it. After all, how do you currently convince under-18s and felons that they cannot vote? You don’t; you simply don’t give them the opportunity to do so. Those are arbitrary rules; I’m simply offering another, much better arbitrary rule. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/65 "2010-09-02T02:09:06Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > And the fact that this would substantially bias the voting pool racially is just bad luck. > > Good luck with that. > > Otara Wait, are you saying that you expect some races to perform more poorly on an IQ test than others? I’m afraid I don’t share your assumption; a properly-structured test that ignores socio-economic differences should not result in any significant racial deviation among passing rates. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/66 "2010-09-02T02:11:18Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > > [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > > > Then, before too long, you’ll begin writing the Manifesto and lovingly crafting the bombs. > > Wow, this was posted yesterday before [this news story](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/01/AR2010090104795.html) hit. Seems we have in this country a new bomb-maker who’s written a manifesto. Had. [They shot the bastard dead.](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38962968/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/) But anyway, that’s just so trite, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/67 "2010-09-02T03:52:47Z")
One technique I recommend is to invoke the OJ Simpson trial. Here’s a case where numerous, mutually-supporting facts painted an extremely clear picture of what happened, but where the facts lost due to identity politics. Chances are your target sided with the facts in that case, so you can equate him with the yahoos who bought into all those ridiculous conspiracy theories to explain away the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/68 "2010-09-02T04:30:06Z")
“I’m afraid I don’t share your assumption; a properly-structured test that ignores socio-economic differences should not result in any significant racial deviation among passing rates.” Which unfortunately doesnt exist even after decades of trying. Proper IQ tests can take over an hour to complete , require oversight by professionals and are still subject to bias which is why cross cultural comparisons are made with great caution. As far as ‘we’ll just do a constitutional amendment’ goes, the very fact noone is even really trying this kind of proposal let alone succeeding covers that as far as Im concerned. Ultimately you’d have a politician with \>75% of the voter base competing against \<25% of the voter base. Its pretty obvious who is more likely to win. Not to mention nothing has shown intelligence is a protective factor against people being unwilling to change their mind anyway, as this very thread demonstrates. Otara ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/69 "2010-09-02T04:58:31Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > > [@Sailboat](#): > > > > And have **corporations** taking over more and more of our rights, our income, our health care and general welfare, and how much money we get. Eventually we’ll find our individual freedoms subsumed to those dictated by corporations whose functionaries care not one iota for the average man, what is best for him and/or what he should receive and how he should live. > > > > Your way presupposes the same future, just with overlords we can’t vote out of office. > > Sure you can. Just get as many people as you can, to buy up as many shares as you can, then vote at the next share holders meeting. > > I saw an article on CNBC about a fund that would do this with companies they thought were good but had shitty CEOs and as a result a low stock price. They’d buy as many shares as they could. Then go around talking to other major share holders. Eventually they’d vote the loser out on his ass, and rake in the profits. Brilliant. The bulk of stock is in the hands of the few, the elite. The boards sit on the stock for generations. You gotta be pretty dumb to think you buying up stock and attending board meeting matters in the slightest. i am always fascinated when people like SA defends an emotionally held position and convinces himself it is logical. it requires mental agility on a great scale. Bush came is power during a time of peace and prosperity. no wars ,no deficits. He left us a horrible mess. He gave us huge deficits, 2 wars (unpaid for). And instituted policies that took our rights away. Why the hell any one would want those idiots in power is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/70 "2010-09-02T05:22:48Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > > [@Commissar](#): > > > > Well, let’s start with small steps, and the see what happens. No need to use an extreme position as a starting point. > > > > Here’s my proposal: all adults take an IQ test. Only those scoring in the top 25% get to vote or run for office. Easy, cheap, and you still get to continue playing at democracy - just with smarter people. What do you think, friends? > > Why reinvent the wheel. Here’s the [1965 Alabama voter literacy test](http://www.civicallyspeaking.org/literacy.pdf). How about both \*\*Deeg \*\*and **Commissar** , take the test (no cheating!) and tell us your scores. Then we’ll decide whether you’re qualified to vote, much less be our dictator. Boy, that test is hard! I sure am glad I’m white (but not Hispanic).:dubious: (I only missed one question. Seriously, I would have figured it as part of citizenship test, cause I suspect most Americans couldn’t muster a D+, much less non-Doper Alabamans :() ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/71 "2010-09-02T05:25:54Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Therefore I’ve come to the conclusion that Rush Limbaugh is largely correct when he says that Republicans must not give an inch to the left in this country and that liberals and Democrats must be opposed and defeated **at all costs** Could you elaborate a bit as to what costs you think would be acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/72 "2010-09-02T05:34:59Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > As far as ‘we’ll just do a constitutional amendment’ goes, the very fact noone is even really trying this kind of proposal let alone succeeding covers that as far as Im concerned. Ultimately you’d have a politician with \>75% of the voter base competing against \<25% of the voter base. Its pretty obvious who is more likely to win. As long as the amendment is adopted speedily enough, the voter base is irrelevant. By the time the next election rolls around, those 75% are out of a vote, and have no say in whom to elect or reelect. > [@](#): > > Not to mention nothing has shown intelligence is a protective factor against people being unwilling to change their mind anyway, as this very thread demonstrates. That’s not the point though, is it? IQ screening will keep the idiots out, whatever their particular views and positions. The intelligent voters may not be any more flexible in their views, but I think that it is safe to assume that those views will be wiser and more informed in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/73 "2010-09-02T05:42:16Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The bulk of stock is in the hands of the few, the elite. The boards sit on the stock for generations. You gotta be pretty dumb to think you buying up stock and attending board meeting matters in the slightest. That’s a good point, gonzomax. Western corporations, just like Western governments, love the charade of democracy - a system that is big on show but slim on substance. Sure, technically the shareholders can change the corporation… If not for the big institutional “shareholders” that just want to make the biggest profit possible and can kill most votes, and the fact that the voting system is undermined by the board’s proxy mechanisms, and the fact that most US corporations are headquartered in Delaware, which has effectively stripped shareholders of any actual legal power in recent years, and the fact that boards usually reserve the power to issue new stock in order to dilute your voting power… So on and so forth. > [@](#): > > Bush came is power during a time of peace and prosperity. no wars ,no deficits. He left us a horrible mess. He gave us huge deficits, 2 wars (unpaid for). And instituted policies that took our rights away. Why the hell any one would want those idiots in power is beyond me. And I would wager that most of the people that voted for Little Bush would not even come close to reaching the coveted 25% under my proposal, if you catch my drift. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/74 "2010-09-02T05:43:06Z")
“IQ screening will keep the idiots out, whatever their particular views and positions.” You seem to be assuming that High IQ = Not Idiot. Literally speaking that is true if one uses the old meaning of the term. When it comes to making poor decisions however, it isnt. IQ just doesnt mean what you want it to mean. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/75 "2010-09-02T11:56:32Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > enjoying the irony of an unrepentant Communist posting to a thread about how partisans don’t learn. > > > > Regards, > > Shodan > > I certainly hope you weren’t referring to me as an unrepentant Communist… No, **Commissar**. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ch4rl3s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c4cdca/32.png) [@ch4rl3s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ch4rl3s)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/76 "2010-09-02T12:02:30Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > > [@Commissar](#): > > > > Here’s my proposal: all adults take an IQ test. Only those scoring in the top 25% get to vote or run for office. Easy, cheap, and you still get to continue playing at democracy - just with smarter people. What do you think, friends? > > Cool. I’ll come up with test questions and have us take it. Good luck! exactly what I was thinking… who gets to set the questions? ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/77 "2010-09-02T12:11:28Z")
‘Fighting Ignorance’ is easy, you’ve just been using the wrong tools. Facts don’t work and never have. People care nothing for ‘facts’. If you are serious about fighting ignorance you need something more potent, like a fire-axe or an M16. ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/78 "2010-09-02T12:12:53Z")
> [@ch4rl3s](#): > > > [@Deeg](#): > > > > Cool. I’ll come up with test questions and have us take it. Good luck! > > exactly what I was thinking… who gets to set the questions? Me. The questions will based on the entire run of the series ‘Friends’. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/79 "2010-09-02T12:15:27Z")
It’s sounds like a lot of you need to learn the difference between a “fact” and an “opinion”. ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208/80 "2010-09-02T12:17:48Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It’s sounds like a lot of you need to learn the difference between a “fact” and an “opinion”. That sounds like an ‘impression’. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-facts-backfire-is-fighting-ignorance-just-a-lost-cause/552208.md?page=5)