# How far back do various national stereotypes go? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 8, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346 "2016-05-08T22:18:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/21 "2016-05-10T05:35:53Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Prior to 1870, one stereotype of the French was that they were the great warrior race of Europe. That’s changed. That may be beginning to change back. France seems to be much more willing to send troops overseas in the last 10 years or so. I think that they’re finally getting over the national trauma that the world wars inflicted on them. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/22 "2016-05-10T07:02:43Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > The idea that the Greek language is especially difficult for non-native speakers to master seems to date back [to at least the middle ages](http://www.npr.org/2015/07/05/420335188/is-it-all-greek-to-you-thank-lazy-monks-and-the-bard-for-the-phrase). In fact, a [large number of languages](http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/if-its-all-greek-to-you-blame-monks-and-shakespeare/) have some sort of “it’s Greek to me” idiom that is used to refer to anything that is seen as incomprehensible. I prefer [this version](http://satwcomic.com/art/alt/it-s-all-greek-to-me-art.png). Much more complete. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/23 "2016-05-10T10:14:04Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Technically Austrian (before 1938 and again since 1945), but still, good call. It serves as an example of what I was talking about: even in other countries, Italian=music. I wonder how far back the stereotype of Americans being oblivious to cultures other than their own goes. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/24 "2016-05-10T13:24:38Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I wonder how far back the stereotype of Americans being oblivious to cultures other than their own goes. As an American I couldn’t care less. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/25 "2016-05-10T13:31:24Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Prior to 1870, one stereotype of the French was that they were the great warrior race of Europe. That’s changed. The idea that the French weren’t great warriors seems, like the idea that the British have bad teeth, a peculiar stereotype that the Americans hold. Few in Europe who have spent the past 1000 years fighting the French think they have particularly lost the reputation of being a fighting nation. That belongs to the Italians. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/26 "2016-05-10T14:28:41Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > That belongs to the Italians. Only since WW2 though. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/27 "2016-05-10T14:53:49Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Only since WW2 though. You might want to check how the Italians did in WW1 before you say things like that. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/28 "2016-05-10T15:49:07Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > You might want to check how the Italians did in WW1 before you say things like that. Beat the ever loving shit out of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and make Germany’s position untenable after [Vittorio Veneto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vittorio_Veneto)? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/29 "2016-05-10T17:50:22Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > The real national characteristic of Italians that goes back many centuries is music. Italians’ love of singing and playing music is quite real. It isn’t just a stereotype. Often when listening to [Italian song](https://youtu.be/fqKamfos3Nk?t=34s), it sounds so perfectly formed that I could practically come to believe that Italians invented music in the first place. Of course, evidence of human music making goes back centuries before anything called Italy was even invented. > > But in a certain sense, Italians did invent music. Music as we know it. The is largely true, based on the unique relation of consonants to vowels in Italian. This is one reason why Italian operas suffer when translated. ---
**Author:** ![duncs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@duncs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duncs)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/30 "2016-05-11T09:02:41Z")
Being English, the stereotypes of other countries are (not that I believe most of them) Welsh - Sheep shagging leek eaters Scottish - Tight fisted skirt wearers Irish - Potato eating stupid people French - Cheese eating surrender monkeys Belgians - Chocolate and beer! Germans - “Don’t mention the war” Spanish - Bullfighting, Paella eating lazy people Italians - Pasta eating hand talkers who are always late Americans - Fat people who will shoot you if you disrespect their flag Australians - Beer and kangaroos Japanese - Camera wearing tourists English (I suppose I should include this one) - Tea drinkers in Bowler hats who have bad teeth ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/31 "2016-05-11T09:04:29Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > The is largely true, based on the unique relation of consonants to vowels in Italian. Sorry, I don’t understand this part. Could you explain? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/32 "2016-05-12T17:37:00Z")
To hear Andrew Boorde tell it, in the 16th century the Welsh were stereotyped for mainly two things: Thievery and Marian devotion. (Also a love of “rosted chese” and playing the harp) In the _Fyrst Boke of the Introduction of Knowledge_ (written 1542, published 1547), Boorde presents the various national stereotypes—all of which are unflattering except for the first one, on Englishmen. The [second chapter, beginning “I am a Welshman…” is about the Welsh](https://books.google.com/books?id=7aoUAAAAQAAJ&dq=andrew%20boorde%20fyrst%20boke&pg=PA125#v=onepage&q&f=false), including these lines: I loue our Lady, for I am of hyr kynne; He that doth not loue her, I be-shrew his chynne. Also, the crude woodcut illustrating the chapter shows a Welshman kneeling and praying to Mary. I’m curious about Marian devotion as a Welsh stereotype, because no trace of it remains today, except for all the places in Wales named _Llanfair_, which means ‘Mary’s church’. I have searched but found no sources other than Boorde’s for an account of particular devotion to Mary in pre-Reformation Wales. Of course, by the time this was published, Welsh-ancestried Henry VIII had already initiated the English Reformation, which annihilated any sort of Marian cultus that may have existed, so the information was obsolete practically as soon as it was published. P.S. What’s the reason for the Welsh claiming kinship with Mary? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/33 "2016-05-12T18:41:23Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > P.S. What’s the reason for the Welsh claiming kinship with Mary? There are medieval beliefs that her mother, St. Anne, was from Brittany; I would not be surprised to find the Welsh shared them. She found a boat on the shore, stepped in, and was transported to Palestine. The legend obviously post-dates the special veneration of Mary, and equally obviously isn’t true, but it’s some corroborating evidence for the cult of Mary in (linguistically) British culture, anyway. Further, with some speculation and the odd reference: [http://wendymewes.blogspot.ca/2011/06/saint-anne-of-brittany.html](http://wendymewes.blogspot.ca/2011/06/saint-anne-of-brittany.html) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/34 "2016-05-12T18:45:18Z")
What about those peaceful, socially conscious [del]Vikings[/del] Scandinavians? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/35 "2016-05-12T19:21:22Z")
My favorite stereotypes: > **[Faxlore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faxlore)** > > Faxlore is a sort of folklore: humorous texts, folk poetry, folk art, and urban legends that are circulated, not by word of mouth, but by fax machine. Xeroxlore or photocopylore is similar material circulated by photocopying. > The first use of the term xeroxlore was in Michael J. Preston's essay "Xerox-lore", 1974. "Photocopylore" is perhaps the most frequently encountered name for the phenomenon now\[citation needed\], because of trademark concerns involving the Xerox Corporation. The first use... > [@](#): > > Heaven is where the police are British, the lovers French, the mechanics German, the chefs Italian, and it is all organized by the Swiss. > Hell is where the police are German, the lovers Swiss, the mechanics French, the chefs British, and it is all organized by the Italians. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/36 "2016-05-13T01:04:17Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > There are medieval beliefs that her mother, St. Anne, was from Brittany; I would not be surprised to find the Welsh shared them. She found a boat on the shore, stepped in, and was transported to Palestine. The legend obviously post-dates the special veneration of Mary, and equally obviously isn’t true, but it’s some corroborating evidence for the cult of Mary in (linguistically) British culture, anyway. > > Further, with some speculation and the odd reference: [http://wendymewes.blogspot.ca/2011/06/saint-anne-of-brittany.html](http://wendymewes.blogspot.ca/2011/06/saint-anne-of-brittany.html) That would be it. _Diolch yn fawr!_ ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/37 "2016-05-13T02:27:28Z")
It may also be - and this is speculative on my part - that at the time Boorde was writing (1547) the Henrician reformation had made more progress in England than in Wales, and the Welsh were thefore seen as traditionalist, papist holdouts. It’s notable that in 1547 the Bible and an early version of the Prayer Book had been published in English (and were presumably in use in England) but, SFAIK, nothing at all had been published in Welsh. ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Boods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@Ms\_Boods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms_Boods)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/38 "2016-05-13T11:59:02Z")
Fire up your Aristophanes (5th c BC) for stereotypes of the Spartans and others; Plautus (3rd c BC) for some one-stop shopping when it comes to the Carthaginians. Nowt new under the sun. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/39 "2016-05-13T13:45:35Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > You might want to check how the Italians did in WW1 before you say things like that. The Italians fight hard in World War I, they just had all their men killed in an unwinnable theatre. It was unquestionable WWII that leaves the modern impression of Italian military ineptitude, and for good reason. Italy fought a war that would have been hilarious in its incompetence were in not for the fact people were dying. I think it’s generally true that national stereotypes are largely recent in invention, since they tend to be based on recent events (recent in a historical sense, anyway.) Most modern national stereotypes don’t date back longer than a century or so and many of those that do are relatively local - Germans have very different stereotypical views from Americans. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346/40 "2016-05-13T14:00:14Z")
Yes. In fact, we can stereotype a nation by ascribing to it stereotypes about other nations. Is it fair to say that it is a common stereotype of Americans to say that they cherish stereotypes of the French as cheese-eating surrender monkeys, of the Irish as having red hair, etc? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-do-various-national-stereotypes-go/754346.md?page=3)