# How far back does the association between the devil and fiddles go? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 13, 2023, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130 "2023-03-13T21:58:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/1 "2023-03-13T21:58:35Z")
In Leonard Cohen’s posthumously released song _Happens to the Heart_ he sings this line. “Now the angel’s got a fiddle, the devil’s got a harp” which plays against the stereotype. That got me thinking about where the stereotypes come from. The angel with their harp is goes back a long time and is likely impossible to pin down. I’m interested in the other side of the story. Where did we get the idea that the devil enjoys playing the fiddle. Did it start with Charlie Daniels and the devil going down to Georgia, or does it go further back than that? ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/2 "2023-03-13T22:25:28Z")
Niccolo Paganini, violin player,(1782-1840), was strongly associated with the devil. Also from Classical Ghastlies _([MPR Music Feature: Classical Ghastlies](http://music.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/0010_halloween/violin.shtml)):_ _"The modern violin emerged in the 16th century, and was often used as an accompaniment to dancing. Peasant performers in dances were denounced in the afterglow of the Protestant Reformation and Catholic counter-Reformation. Many writers blamed the devil for the very existence of dance. The devil, as agent of death and creator of dance, bcame linked to the violin during the Renaissance period, as depicted by paintings such as Pieter Brueghel’s “The Triumph of Death” and Hendrik Goltzius’s “Couple Playing, with Death Behind.”_ ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/3 "2023-03-13T22:42:36Z")
A good article on the subject I found when doing an image search for the oldest depiction of this meme. This picture is from 1824: [![](https://blog.hmns.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/devil3.jpg) ](https://blog.hmns.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/devil3.jpg) Here’s the article. Yeah, it starts with the reception of Paganini. > **[Why Does Satan Like The Violin So Much? | BEYONDbones](https://blog.hmns.org/2019/06/why-does-satan-like-the-violin-so-much/)** > > Violins are amazingly versatile instruments; they are equally at home whining their melodies in symphony orchestras in New York as they are on front porches in Appalachia. Apparently, they are even appreciated in Hell. For those of us who have heard... ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/4 "2023-03-14T04:25:16Z")
Paganini also composed what some people consider to be the hardest violin music > [@](#): > > Niccolò [Paganini](https://amp.classicfm.com/composers/paganini/)’s _Caprices_ make up 24 fiendishly demanding pieces for the string instrument, packed with double stops, left-hand _pizzicato_ and endless _spiccato_ bowing. It’s no wonder people thought Paganini was in league [with the devil](https://amp.classicfm.com/composers/paganini/niccolo-gifted-violinist-deal-with-devil/)… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/5 "2023-03-14T06:18:59Z")
From the aforementioned “Triumph of Death”: [![](https://artincontext.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Detail-of-Triumph-of-Death-Painting.jpg) ](https://artincontext.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Detail-of-Triumph-of-Death-Painting.jpg) It’s (a) Death, not a demon or the Devil, though. ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/6 "2023-03-14T08:02:31Z")
Before Paganini, there was Giuseppe Tartini, who wrote the Devil’s Trill sonata, according to him in 1713, or maybe 20 years later. The 1824 picture posted above by @EinsteinsHund is an illustration of Tartini’s story: he dreamed that the devil visited him in a dream and played the piece. > **[Violin Sonata in G minor (Tartini)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_Sonata_in_G_minor_(Tartini))** > > The Violin Sonata in G minor, GT 2.g05; B.g5, more familiarly known as the Devil's Trill Sonata (Italian: Il trillo del diavolo), is a work for solo violin (with figured bass accompaniment) by Giuseppe Tartini (1692–1770). It is the composer's best-known composition, notable for its technically difficult passages. A typical performance lasts 15 minutes. > Tartini allegedly told the French astronomer Jérôme Lalande that he had dreamed that the devil had appeared to him and had asked to be Tartini's... ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/7 "2023-03-14T08:44:00Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > Paganini also composed what some people consider to be the hardest violin music That would be in the standard repertoire. I’d bet there are much harder, insanely demanding pieces written by contemporary composers. But then, very few violonists can play them (and even fewer are willing to…). ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/8 "2023-03-14T09:49:14Z")
Paganini was a violin virtuoso who composed to a large extent for himself. I wouldn’t rate him as a great composer, but what he wrote was an exemplar of very difficult. What we would call a “flex” nowadays. Any fool can write stuff that is hard to play. Contemporary composers, especially those that have never played an instrument themselves, can write some silly hard stuff, simply because they are not as well versed in the art as they should be. OTOH, something as apparently simple as a Philip Glass work can require total concentration to avoid messing up. And musicians can get a great deal of satisfaction from it. The modern world is replete with guitarists with silly levels of technique who cannot compose or improvise to save their lives, and just blast out inane crud with astounding ability. There are a very few that can get both playing and composition or improvisation down. Paganini was the Hendrix of his age. However someone like Guthrie Govan is another jump. Nothing stands still. (Or Alan Holdsworth, probably the most influential electric guitarist of the last few decades.) Robert Johnson was rumoured to have done the deal with the devil at a crossroads at midnight for his ability to play guitar. So it isn’t just violinists. But the jump isn’t huge. All IMHO, you get what you paid for. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/9 "2023-03-14T10:09:17Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > Paganini was a violin virtuoso who composed to a large extent for himself. I wouldn’t rate him as a great composer, but what he wrote was an exemplar of very difficult. What we would call a “flex” nowadays. > > … > > Paganini was the Hendrix of his age. He sounds more like the Yngwie Malmsteen of his age. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/10 "2023-03-14T10:11:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > He sounds more like the Yngwie Malmsteen of his age. I’ll give you that. But Yngwie is probably less well known. (Just) ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/11 "2023-03-14T11:27:54Z")
I’d postulate that it goes back to whenever the concept that Nero fiddled while Rome burned. Isn’t he the same guy associated as the antichrist? > **[Nero](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero)** > > Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus (/ˈnɪəroʊ/ NEER-oh; born Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus; 15 December AD 37 – 9 June AD 68), was the fifth Roman emperor and final emperor of the Julio-Claudian dynasty, reigning from AD 54 until his death in AD 68. He was adopted by the Roman emperor Claudius at the age of 13 and succeeded him on the throne. Nero was popular with the members of his Praetorian Guard and lower-class commoners in Rome and its provinces, but he was deeply resented by the Roman... [https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia\_romana/gladiators/nero.html](https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/nero.html) > **[Did Nero Really Fiddle as Rome Burned?](https://www.britannica.com/story/did-nero-really-fiddle-as-rome-burned)** > > It really depends on how you define “fiddle.” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/12 "2023-03-14T13:11:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > From the aforementioned “Triumph of Death”: > [https://artincontext.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Detail-of-Triumph-of-Death-Painting.jpg](https://artincontext.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Detail-of-Triumph-of-Death-Painting.jpg) > > It’s (a) Death, not a demon or the Devil, though. And that instrument he’s wielding looks more like a slightly shrunken cello. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/13 "2023-03-14T16:56:25Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > Contemporary composers, especially those that have never played an instrument themselves, can write some silly hard stuff, simply because they are not as well versed in the art as they should be. Just a quick hijack and a nitpick. I very much doubt that there are (m)any contemporary composers who cannot play an instrument with some real proficiency. Usually it’ll be the piano. While many people don’t care much for contemporary classical, composers are not hacks. They know their stuff. Moreover, "contemporary classical is a useless umbrella term that encompasses a huge variety of styles, from the easy-listening minimalism of **Glass** to the most esoteric hardcore stuff **Ferneyhough** with almost every shade of neo- and post- movements to the unclassifiables, the latter being the most interesting in my view. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/14 "2023-03-14T17:25:29Z")
Paganini also played guitar, and we all know what a diabolic instrument the guitar is. Wikipedia sez he only played it in intimate settings and not for the public. There are YouTube videos of his guitar music, which I’ll be checking out tonight or tomorrow, if I remember. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/15 "2023-03-14T17:41:23Z")
He supposedly said something like, “I am the master of the violin, but the guitar is the master of me.” ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-back-does-the-association-between-the-devil-and-fiddles-go/981130/16 "2023-03-14T17:46:11Z")
Heh, so it _possessed_ him? 😀