# How far can I go before the government hangs me... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 17, 2006, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-i-go-before-the-government-hangs-me/369051 "2006-08-17T04:46:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Surbey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Surbey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surbey)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-i-go-before-the-government-hangs-me/369051/1 "2006-08-17T04:46:18Z")
So, hypothetically speaking, how far could I go in the direction of overthrowing my government before they have the right to hang me? Do I have to do something violent before I can be considered treasonous? Could I that promote an idea that states “Screw the government, hit the president in the face!” and not go to jail? At what point, leagally speaking, am I no longer considered an activist? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-i-go-before-the-government-hangs-me/369051/2 "2006-08-17T05:27:15Z")
In which country? The United States? Hang literally or figuratively? You would first presumably have to live in Washington or New Hampshire, the only states to retain the gallows according to [this.](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=8&did=245#state) Even then, you would have to request it or be a hardcore IV drug user so that they can’t find a useable vein for lethal injection. As to the reasons, it may be somewhat GD material. The government hasn’t killed anyone nonviolent in awhile (2 murderers plus McVeigh since 1976). The last were the Rosenbergs AFAIK. You would presumably have to be a violent terrorist, and then you demise is assured. Saying “screw the government” won’t get you arrested, inciting rebellion would, but then it probably isn’t capital. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-i-go-before-the-government-hangs-me/369051/3 "2006-08-17T05:40:49Z")
Who’s your government? If it’s, oh let’s say… The Holy Roman Empire of 1066 AD, I imagine it wouldn’t be that hard. (or the Spanish Inquisition. But you were expecting that.) ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/48db29/32.png) [@Caffeine\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine_Cat)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-i-go-before-the-government-hangs-me/369051/4 "2006-08-17T06:21:01Z")
I guess it wouldn’t be that hard in modern Iran. They are hanging people [at the drop of a hat](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/5217424.stm). ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-i-go-before-the-government-hangs-me/369051/5 "2006-08-17T06:43:38Z")
You could just call the Whitehouse and threaten the President on the phone. That’d do it. You didn’t have to actually do anything, just threaten. I assume you mean hang in the sense that you’d be in a lot of trouble as opposed to dead? For that matter, your local P.D. or even your P.C. might suffice. Why do you want some trouble? In all seriousness though…you don’t have to do much of anything. If they want you they’ll just take you. It’s not like the Bill of Rights is of much use anymore. Go buy a large supply of nitrogen based fertilizer and dissappear for awhile. Move to Waco and start a commune. Change your name to Mohammed. Do all the above and I’d bet you wouldn’t last a week. 😉 If you’re talking about an actual (legal) execution by the US Gov. it would take a bit more than name calling. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-i-go-before-the-government-hangs-me/369051/6 "2006-08-17T19:47:23Z")
[QUOTE=Rigamarole] Who’s your government? If it’s, oh let’s say… The Holy Roman Empire of 1066 AD, I imagine it wouldn’t be that hard. (or the Spanish Inquisition. But you were expecting that.) [/QUOTE] Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-i-go-before-the-government-hangs-me/369051/7 "2006-08-17T23:29:33Z")
First of all, please populate your “Location” field if asking legal questions in GQ. The following answer assumes that you’re living in the United States. [QUOTE=Surbey] So, hypothetically speaking, how far could I go in the direction of overthrowing my government before they have the right to hang me? Do I have to do something violent before I can be considered treasonous? [/quote] Putting aside the issue of capital punishment, and the means of execution, you’ll have to wage overt war before you can be considered _treasonous_. Treason is the only crime defined in the United States Constitution: > [@](#): > > Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court. You’ll have to take up arms and “levy war” before you’ll run afoul of that. Before matters reach that point, however, you may be violating federal laws against [rebellion or insurrection](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002383----000-.html) or [seditious conspiracy](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002384----000-.html): > [@](#): > > If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both. Note that this is not a capital offense. > [@Surbey](#): > > Could I that promote an idea that states “Screw the government, hit the president in the face!” and not go to jail? At what point, leagally speaking, am I no longer considered an activist? Now you’re asking whether you can be punished for merely _advocating_ sedition instead of actually commiting it. As it happens, this was the subject of considerable controversy during the Cold War. Between 1940 and 1954, the government passed a series of laws which made it a crime to “advocate, abet, advise, or teach the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence” or to belong to an organization, such as the American Communist Party, which did so. For a time courts sustained these laws, but as Cold War passions began to cool in 1957, the Supreme Court issued the ruling of [Yates v. United States](http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Yates/) which greatly narrowed their scope: > [@](#): > > The Smith Act does not prohibit advocacy and teaching of forcible overthrow of the Government as an abstract principle, divorced from any effort to instigate action to that end . . . So in today’s legal climate, you can pretty much rant and rave to your heart’s content, as long as you don’t start planning to blow up buildings or assassinate leaders. To the extent that your wish to “hit the President in the face” in construed as a threat against a specific individual, you might get in trouble for that, but it will be for threatening assault, not for sedition. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-i-go-before-the-government-hangs-me/369051/8 "2006-08-18T00:25:05Z")
Remember the El Rukns streetgang? They offered to commit terrorist acts in the US on Libya’s behalf in exchange for weapons and funding, and were caught in a federal sting operation. I wonder what hole they got stuck down and when they’ll ever see the light of day again. ---
**Author:** ![brujaja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@brujaja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brujaja)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-i-go-before-the-government-hangs-me/369051/9 "2006-08-18T02:52:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court. You know, it’s that “adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort” part that concerns me. It seems so vague..was that added later? What exactly is “adhering” in this case? If I go to a protest, and there happen to be some extremist types there, is that “adhering”? If I shop in an Arab-owned corner store, and it turns they have questionable associations (N.B. for the record, nearly all the Arabs living in America do not have any such associations at all! But for the sake of the discussion–) -would that be “giving them aid”? What exactly is “comfort”? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-i-go-before-the-government-hangs-me/369051/10 "2006-08-18T03:40:23Z")
[QUOTE=brujaja] You know, it’s that “adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort” part that concerns me. It seems so vague..was that added later? [/QUOTE] No, that is the original language. It means, legally, that you don’t have to join the opposing army officially to be a traitor, that aiding the enemy in any material way is a crime. The Rosenbergs, however, were not convicted of treason, but under the Espionage Act. > **[Julius and Ethel Rosenberg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethel_and_Julius_Rosenberg)** > > Julius Rosenberg (May 12, 1918 – June 19, 1953) and Ethel Rosenberg (née Greenglass; September 28, 1915 – June 19, 1953) were an American married couple who were convicted of spying for the Soviet Union, including providing top-secret information about American radar, sonar, jet propulsion engines, and nuclear weapon designs. They were executed by the federal government of the United States in 1953 using New York's state execution chamber in Sing Sing in Ossining, New York, becoming the first A... > [@](#): > > The Rosenbergs were convicted on March 29, 1951, and sentenced to death under section 2 of the Espionage Act, 50 U.S. Code 32 (now 18 U.S. Code 794), which prohibits transmitting or attempting to transmit to a foreign government information “relating to the national defense,” by Judge Irving Kaufman on April 5. And the OP should check out [TITLE 18 \> PART I \> CHAPTER 115](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_115.html) > [@](#): > > CHAPTER 115—TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES > > § 2381. Treason > § 2382. Misprision of treason > § 2383. Rebellion or insurrection > § 2384. Seditious conspiracy > § 2385. Advocating overthrow of Government > § 2386. Registration of certain organizations > § 2387. Activities affecting armed forces generally > § 2388. Activities affecting armed forces during war > § 2389. Recruiting for service against United States > § 2390. Enlistment to serve against United States How far do you have to go? Far enough that a court will convict you. My non-formal-legal understanding of the real world is that the Supreme Court weighs _mens rea_ or evil intent extremely heavily in such crimes. Activists simply do not get prosecuted, or, perhaps I should say convicted, for treason or sedition or aiding the enemy. Only formal, tangible acts of assistance merit that penalty.